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Crap like this (pasted below from something I posted elsewhere) can easily come off as "bragging"...but the purpose is to make some points.

Beginning around age 5 or 6, I began learning songs from recordings. During my youth, my motives were to learn those individual songs, but (perhaps without realizing it - though I suppose I DID realize that I was becoming quicker and better at it - and noticing more-and-more details) I ended up with a set of skills that - for many university and conservatory music students, as well as graduates and professionals - end up being real stumbling blocks.

It's never too late to delve into this, and as far as "At age blah-blah, the human brain blah-blah"...well..to hell with that mess...MOTIVATION (I very sincerely believe) overcomes MANY obstacles and shortcomings.

This is an OLD fb post of mine, and the other person was a 3rd/4th tier country music singer, who was making his living cleaning and refinishing log houses (and automobiles), and who was receiving some air-play in Europe, but not in the USA. He was an "ok" singer, but had not learned how to play guitar nor keyboard instruments.

A c. fifty-year-old man (who's doing some work around here) is wanting me to teach him some stuff about the guitar.
(I showed him some basics the other night...
He has recorded some country songs, actually has had some air-play, and owns a pretty good guitar, but doesn't know how to play it.)
He was getting ready to leave for the week and said, "Show me something I could do with two or three strings"...
...so I racked my brain and thought of that Harrison intro to Here Comes The Sun, and played it for him (very simple) and then went into the song a little bit.
He asked "When did you learn that?" to which I replied "Just now".
He couldn't seem to believe that. I explained to him that "knowledge" is a lot more powerful than "learning a bunch of songs".

That having been said, "Learning/knowing a whole bunch of songs" (or tuba repertoire/solos/excerpts/etc.) is GREAT, but knowing HOW to learn and HOW to interpret-and-master that repertoire (WITHOUT having to necessarily be spoon-fed interpretation of every piece of a repertoire by some teacher/guru) is much more powerful.

Rambling thoughts, because I don't know what to add... but I do agree with you completely, Joe. And my own 6-year-old child is quite a songbird, and sings stuff he hears on the radio. Music with words and music without words. He's got a good ear!

It's like speaking. If you know a whole bunch of words, but can't string them together into sentences, you're not going to make any sense.

I took some German courses in college. The first class I had was with a stern Austrian woman (who was still likeable and "funny" in that kind of dry Austrian wit). She would frequently remind us things like "sure, you can say the words. But these are not sentences that make any sense to people who speak the language. You will sound like a fool."

I think music is sort of the same way... if you can play notes, that's good and fine. But if you can't carry a musical conversation, you're in trouble.

And by "in trouble," there's a big range for that too. For the average community band tuba player, there's not a lot of need to be a great musician or any of that... but the results increase exponentially when you do things like pay attention to the music, understand what's happening around you, and make your part make sense.

I remember rejoining a community band after college was over, and playing next to someone. Some boring band piece with a lot of rests. The player next to me asked something like:

Him: hey, where are we, I lost track of counting rests
Me: I don't know, I don't count rests
Him: wait, what? how do you know where to come in?
Me: Because I know the music, and know where we come in. Plus, the guy up there waving his arms around is gonna look back here and gesture at us. It's not that hard.
Him: Oh, I see where we are: 12-2-3-4, 13-2-3-4, 14-2-3-4, ...

It's interesting to observe very wonderful-performing professional musicians (instrumentalists and conductors) SOME of whom know how to interpret phrasing on their own (realizing that there ARE multiple ways to interpret phrases) vs. those who were individually taught how to interpret every single phrase of every single piece of ("classical") music with which they are familiar.

More well-versed/self-thinking (as an example) conductors actually test out different types of phrasing (and/or will stop and say things such as "you're not playing the LONG notes...At least, do SOMETHING with them !!!"...etc.)...yet AVOIDING (at least, not at first) "singing" a specific interpretation to them.

LOL...I recall a "name" conductor/music director testing out different phrasing (three different ideas) on a passage, then shrugging his shoulders, and telling the violins, "Do whatever you want to do".

bloke "I've sort of digressed (topically) from 'hearing notes and chords' to 'hearing phrasing and music'...but they completely/absolutely related."

Conductors... I remember watching some video of an orchestra rehearsal (IDK, something they play all the time like Beethoven) where the conductor started the group, then walked out and around the hall to see how it sounded. Partially as a sound check. Partially to see what would happen without any direction to the group.

Nobody should be surprised that the group sounded just fine, and didn't sound like they were leader-less. I always wondered if the conductor had the reaction of "ya jerks, am I a joke to you?" or (more likely, based on ego) "I have trained this ensemble to play as I envision and feel this music"

IDK... I always sort of thought it was also like "If I die while conducting this, you'd better keep playing and at least give me the dignity of a great final performance."

Even top-tier orchestras require some decision-making, managing, and (well...) "inspiration".

Prior to the "celebrity on the podium paid a crazy-high amount of dough", the lead violinists (much as they tend to strongly gesture, today) led orchestras...

thus: the title, "CONCERTMASTER".

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:34 pm Even top-tier orchestras require some decision-making, managing, and (well...) "inspiration".

https://youtu.be/gPzDh2ypK1U?t=518

Maestro Zander lays out a good reasoning for a conductor, even where he's dealing with a trumpet player playing the opening fanfare to Mahler 5. I like his construction of it - that the trumpet player shouldn't have to do it alone. There's a lot going on to execute that bugle call well, and if you can offload some of it - timing, volume, etc...to someone else, it can help.

Ideally we call can do it all - technique, knowledge, interpretation, etc...But we all have our shortcomings. I've never had an issue with musicality. Nor have I had an issue with learning pieces and making them part of my repertoire. I'll point to my post on synesthesia. I think it helps there. I've always fallen short on technique. My accuracy is never what it should be, and my endurance has never been good. I can play the Penderecki Capriccio. I'll miss a few notes along the way. But I can't play anything after I'm done with it :) In most settings that doesn't matter. The musicality matters. And I'm not a pro, so no one expects the perfection that I'm envisioning in my head. I'd wager they would complain more if I hit every note, but it was boring.

in particular: conductors/music directors with that mindset (who view instrumentalists as mere "organ stops" - as revealed towards the beginning of his screed)...

(just fine for teaching children how to approach interpreting music, but - particularly, their *endless listening-to-themselves-talk blather...)

I have no use for them, other than the dollars received - at the end of the day - from tolerating them.

I have no nothing against your post and your point, it’s just that conductors / music directors with that sort of attitude “trigger“ me, just a bit.
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* much as with many of my own posts

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:25 pm in particular: conductors/music directors with that mindset (who view instrumentalists as mere "organ stops" - as revealed towards the beginning of his screed)...

(just fine for teaching children how to approach interpreting music, but - particularly, their *endless listening-to-themselves-talk blather...)

I have no use for them, other than the dollars received - at the end of the day - from tolerating them.

I have no nothing against your post and your point, it’s just that conductors / music directors with that sort of attitude “trigger“ me, just a bit.
___________________________
* much as with many of my own posts

I go back and forth. On the one hand, (to use that specific example to make a general point) every good trumpet player will have their vision for how that opening solo should sound. Just like every other musician in the orchestra. And each person in the orchestra will "know" how the piece should be interpreted/performed. Which is precisely why you need a conductor. There needs to be an overall, singular interpretation that is driven through the piece. And that can come from the conductor.

Additionally, a *good* conductor can provide a set of ears to help get the music to the audience. We all know we don't hear ourselves as clearly as the audience hears us. That's why we have to record ourselves to get better. The conductor can provide that in-the-moment feedback and help us bring out what we want brought out.

To be sure, the above is an idealized version of what a conductor can accomplish. But good conductors DO accomplish it.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:40 am Truth spoken by bloke...

DEAR LORD, SWEET BABY JESUS!


CAN EVERYBODY PLEASE PREACH THIS FROM THE FRIGGIN @$$ED MOUNTAIN TOPS AND JAM IT UP THE BACKSIDES OF ACADEMIA ELITES!?!

HELLO???

Obviously, the topic of this thread has morphed...

The purposes of music are fun/amusement/inspiration, and (maybe...??) satisfaction/feelings of achievement.

> Paint-by-number (selecting the prescribed colors - with no blending in between, and staying inside the lines) is "ok".
> Playing the notes and following the (minimal) directions on a piece of music PAPER is "ok".
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The former (I would argue) is NOT art and NEITHER is the latter music.

Within the genre of every-note-written-down-that-every-player-is-to-play-no-more-no-less music...

A particularly inspirational music director, directing/inspiring mostly 21 - 30 year old string players, along with some per-service aging free-lancers...

Get your head out of that piece of paper, and INTO THE MUSIC !!!

...and this is yet another music director who WILL (when necessity calls) demand particular interpretations of phrases, but who ALSO demands,

At LEAST do SOMETHING...and PARTICULARLY with the LONG notes, and MORE particularly when the composer doesn't specify what you should do with them !

and - who ALSO points out, that

If we play with NO passion, only those - who feel obligated to come - will come, and those - who are looking for entertainment and inspiration - will stay home.

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I suspect that aspiration towards excellence (in general) has mostly faded away, and (ref: since 1950's / Dr. Benjamin Spock) self-esteem-ism has just about completely taken it's place.
I overheard a sensitive, butthurt (of my gender) string player tell that same music director after a rehearsal that he ~felt~ "verbally-abused". (I heard no abuse, but did hear continued insistence that we - the orchestra - sit up, get into the music, get into the STYLE of the music, for pity's sake - get into the TEMPO of the music, pay attention to what we were doing, and play - as we were being paid to do.)

Regardless of the prowess level of the strings (and that particular orchestra: 2nd tier - ie. GOOD), they MUST carry the orchestra.
The REST of us can greatly contribute to them looking (ie. sounding) good, but first, THEY must be - well - GOOD...and their egos must passionately DRIVE them to be GOOD.

bloke "LAA-DEE-DAAAHH..OK...Here's next month's tunes...' looks like I can play all these notes...so back in the folder it all goes... (etc...)"

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 pm (I heard no abuse, but did hear continued insistence that we - the orchestra - sit up, get into the music, get into the STYLE of the music, for pity's sake - get into the TEMPO of the music, pay attention to what we were doing, and play - as we were being paid to do.)

This has always confused me. Solely because if you're not playing the music behind the notes, and you don't have an intrinsic NEED to play the music behind the notes....what are you doing there? If you can just sit there pushing buttons, la dee dah, whatever...what are you doing? Why does the conductor need to get you to play passionately?

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:14 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:56 pm (I heard no abuse, but did hear continued insistence that we - the orchestra - sit up, get into the music, get into the STYLE of the music, for pity's sake - get into the TEMPO of the music, pay attention to what we were doing, and play - as we were being paid to do.)

This has always confused me. Solely because if you're not playing the music behind the notes, and you don't have an intrinsic NEED to play the music behind the notes....what are you doing there? If you can just sit there pushing buttons, la dee dah, whatever...what are you doing? Why does the conductor need to get you to play passionately?

We've all seen bad acting, as well as people who mock bad acting...It's just the same with musical performance.
words - no passion/expression ---- notes - no passion/expression
We all recognize this, but - if we're hearing the expression/passion in our HEADS, that MIGHT POSSIBLY (??) be drowning out the LACK of it in our actual delivery..