initial psychological reactions to for-sale frankentubas

[bloke]

This is not a troll topic.
It is, however, a topic that really hasn’t been discussed before – at least not that I remember.

We don’t need to discuss what people’s psychological reactions are to factory-made instruments that are offered for sale with various levels of wear-and-tear. Even if all beat up, those are known quantities, and their potentials are known quantities.

I suspect that an interesting topic would be discussing how people react to home-built or shop-built instruments made from instruments put together from parts that are either all old or or made of partially old parts.

How much does appearance affect impressions?
(quality of dent removal… quality of valve section appearance and the way that slide tube sets are set in - compared to the geometry of other slide tube sets)

How much does the reputation of the builder affect impressions?

How much does owner provenance affect impressions? (Do any tubas really have “collector value“, and are there really more than a handful of “tuba collectors“ in the world?)

How many people would be willing to mail order a frankentuba (rather than traveling to where it is and play testing it extensively before buying it)?

Being unknown quantities, how much would YouTube video demonstrations calm possible buyer skepticism or misgivings?

If effective at all, how revealing would such videos need to be? Though everything can be faked, how much stock might be placed in a split screen video of a quarter note chromatic scale - with no slides being moved, and an electronic tuner showing on half of the screen?

How would player prowess and player cachet affect the weight afforded such videos?

I suppose all of the same questions are applicable for older factory-made instruments (that are no longer made, and with which few players are familiar...)

Fact-based reactions could be discussed, but would tend to be anecdotal, and would quickly wander way off topic, as do most of these threads.

==============
For what it’s worth, I’m not personally considering offering any such instruments for sale, at this time.)

[KingTuba1241X]

How many people would be willing to mail order a frankentuba (rather than traveling to where it is and play testing it extensively before buying it)?

Been there, done that. Good and Bad experience with it, where the good was EXTREMELY good and the bad was...well, extremely bad. With that being said, I will not do it again to say the least. I'd rather have "Factory" and avoid the mess and speculation of having someone tell me it's such a great horn. Even then, depending on which country said factory horn was built and how old I would also say no way. There have been some scary brass creatures to come out of Europe that stink, play bad and could give you cancer from the old lead solder joints

[Yorkboy]

I’ll step into this one……

Someone I know and trust said to me once (and I’m paraphrasing here); “if it looks right, chances are good that it probably is right”.

Meaning: the better the skill level of construction, design and layout is demonstrated, the better the chances are that other “less visual” considerations were taken as well.

Also, the term “frankentuba” covers a large amount of ground; some are complete mutts (in the pedigree “DNA” sense), and some are really nothing more that top-to-side-action conversions; therefore, in some cases the playing characteristics of the original instrument can absolutely be a “known quantity”, as changing the valve machine rarely makes a sonic difference (provided the bore is equivalent).

Yorkboy “the devil is always in the details”

[Three Valves]

If it's purdy enough, I'll and just don't care who put it together or what parts are used.

If available I'll give it a toot.

If it toots out of tune, or I find something else unsavory about it, I ain't introducing it to mom.

Am I still talking about tubas??

[bort2.0]

Just sayin'... "Frankenstein" was the Doctor, not the monster made out of all the parts.

Other quick thoughts:

1) For me, it has to "look right", and I agree 100% with @Yorkboy about that.

2) ^ Related, I also agree with @KingTuba1241X that I hate explaining tubas. There's nothin fun about saying "It's just like a ___ except that ___"

[Rick Denney]

Looks, schmooks. There was a well-known satin silver Holton CC conversion that circulated for a while. It was absolutely gorgeous and it was beautifully constructed. The correlation between that and how it played was not...complete. :)

I've played a Larry Minnick assemblage that used a Keefer bell and a range of other stuff. It looked like an assemblage of stuff, not all of which may have first appeared on a tuba, but it played like a dream. Chuck Guzis owned it, and I assume he still does.

The principle of looking right is an addendum to the motto, form follows function. The notion is that a proper solution usually involves finding how to make it work well, but also how to make it look appropriate. It does not mean that because it looks good it must work well, or that because it looks bad it must not work well. It means that making it work well is only part of the job, and making it also look good often finds a way to make it work even better.

Rick "haven't talked to Chuck in ages" Denney

[Three Valves]

Reliability is also a factor.

It not only has to look good, AND perform well;

It must do so reliably and promptly when asked.

Are we still talking about tubas??

[bloke]

It started out as one of the more extraordinarily flat-third-partial model 340 B-flat tubas. It had been redeemed at a pawnshop over and over again, finally was not, and was picked up for $175. With two additional valves and shortened to C, it played no worse than it did in B-flat. After playing it for a few years, the person who bought it played it for an hour and decided to buy it.
I believe that DP was the next owner, called me and asked if they should buy it, I told him no, he bought it anyway, and then insulted it publicly. .. and so goes one’s reward for being honest.
Since then, I’ve only taken on projects that I was able to test ahead of time enough to know that they were going to turn out to be instruments with easily workable intonation.
The only 345 C that I’ve played - so far - that I thought was pretty good is Don Little’s, but I still really don’t want to own it. Although I have not owned every model of 6/4 York style C tuba, I’ve played just about all of them extensively (including the original), and I’m not interested in owning any of them - anymore.
For flipping. I stay away from Alexanders, Jimbos, and 6/4 Holtons in C.
I haven’t brought it up yet again, I wonder if Rick actually ever played it, though I do believe it ended up in Baltimore, where - I heard - it was taken apart. I believe I’ve encountered a tuba that was made of most of its parts, and it played about the same as before.

Looks, schmooks. There was a well-known satin silver Holton CC conversion that circulated for a while. It was absolutely gorgeous and it was beautifully constructed. The correlation between that and how it played was not...complete. :)

I've played a Larry Minnick assemblage that used a Keefer bell and a range of other stuff. It looked like an assemblage of stuff, not all of which may have first appeared on a tuba, but it played like a dream. Chuck Guzis owned it, and I assume he still does.

The principle of looking right is an addendum to the motto, form follows function. The notion is that a proper solution usually involves finding how to make it work well, but also how to make it look appropriate. It does not mean that because it looks good it must work well, or that because it looks bad it must not work well. It means that making it work well is only part of the job, and making it also look good often finds a way to make it work even better.

Rick "haven't talked to Chuck in ages" Denney

[Yorkboy]

Looks, schmooks. There was a well-known satin silver Holton CC conversion that circulated for a while. It was absolutely gorgeous and it was beautifully constructed. The correlation between that and how it played was not...complete. :)

I've played a Larry Minnick assemblage that used a Keefer bell and a range of other stuff. It looked like an assemblage of stuff, not all of which may have first appeared on a tuba, but it played like a dream. Chuck Guzis owned it, and I assume he still does.

The principle of looking right is an addendum to the motto, form follows function. The notion is that a proper solution usually involves finding how to make it work well, but also how to make it look appropriate. It does not mean that because it looks good it must work well, or that because it looks bad it must not work well. It means that making it work well is only part of the job, and making it also look good often finds a way to make it work even better.

Rick "haven't talked to Chuck in ages" Denney

I’m reticent to split hairs, but I never said anything about looking “good”;

if it looks right, chances are good that it probably is right

Looking “right” and looking “good” are two different things.

Are there vintage horns that look factory fresh, because they sucked so bad that they were never removed from their case? Absolutely.
Are there “frankentubas” that look like someone built them with their eyes closed and their hands tied behind their backs that still play great? Sure. My point is that a higher level of craftsmanship and careful attention to detail are strong indicators of a better constructed and functioning product, generally speaking.

Yorkboy “exceptions don’t necessarily make rules”

[Three Valves]

I’m reticent to split hairs…

Are we still talking about… ah, skip it!!

[Tubajug]

Who'll start the bidding??

[Yorkboy]

Who'll start the bidding??

You’re joking, right?

[Tubajug]

You’re joking, right?

Is that your initial psychological reaction to my frankentuba? :)

[tofu]

.

[Yorkboy]

You’re joking, right?

Is that your initial psychological reaction to my frankentuba? :)

No, to the idea that you’d sell it!

[Tubajug]

You’re joking, right?

Is that your initial psychological reaction to my frankentuba? :)

No, to the idea that you’d sell it!

Haha, no, it won't be for sale anytime soon. I just thought it would make a nice experiment.