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What 4/4 or 5/4 size concert tuba out there be it Chinese, German, American, etc...plays easy and responsive like a King 2341 but has the Germanic design of a rotary horn with a direct, non diffuse ample projection rate? I know this description is open to MANY opinions just curious to see what you guys say. Or in simpler terms, is there a German style rotary tuba that's an easy blow like a small bore American tuba like a King, Reynolds or Conn model? Sorry for the Bloke style subject line..but his threads seem to get attention that way.

The old B&S 101 (and all stencils) might fit the bill. This particular one, I think, is too expensive. But this is the general idea:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/c/p ... 515659.htm

Pro-tip -- if the in/out of the first valve and fourth valve are at 45 degree angles like this, that's usually a good sign.

Some of the Cerveny tubas play really well, too. I know @greenbean has one for sale now, could be worth checking out.

The larger B&S rotary like the PT1 or 3103 (like the one Norm was selling for a good while, earlier this year) would have been a nice option. A very nice option.

Alex 163 BBb tubas are uncommon in the US, but play really well. Big bore, but don't let it scare you, they play nice.

Some of the earlier Yamaha 641's are not hateable either.

I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too, but I'm not thinking of it.

FWIW, I think most/all of the German rotary 4/4 BBb tubas play pretty easily. They aren't piston tubas, so it'll feel a little different from the King. But you'll need to let yourself settle in with it.

Sidebar -- I've read before that in Germany, the 4/4 BBb isn't such a popular tuba. The BBb is usually a larger tuba, and for smaller tuba things, an F tuba is used.

As I said before, I don't think there's a perfect answer. You'll have to go somewhere and try things, or buy, try, sell, and repeat like I've done. We can help with opinions to get you 70% of the way. But that last 30% is up to you, and we'll never convince you well enough for a unanimous purchase. And if we did unanimously approve of something, you might do well to be mighty suspicious. :)

I wonder how the old VMI 3301 would factor in here?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:01 pm Sidebar -- I've read before that in Germany, the 4/4 BBb isn't such a popular tuba. The BBb is usually a larger tuba, and for smaller tuba things, an F tuba is used.

Professional tubists in german symphony orchestras tend to do so. But in many local wind bands and "Posaunenchören" often Bb-tubas in 4/4-size are used.

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm I wonder how the old VMI 3301 would factor in here?

Not at all, it's a piston horn with a medium/large bore.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:01 pm The old B&S 101 (and all stencils) might fit the bill. This particular one, I think, is too expensive. But this is the general idea:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/c/p ... 515659.htm

Pro-tip -- if the in/out of the first valve and fourth valve are at 45 degree angles like this, that's usually a good sign.

Some of the Cerveny tubas play really well, too. I know @greenbean has one for sale now, could be worth checking out.

The larger B&S rotary like the PT1 or 3103 (like the one Norm was selling for a good while, earlier this year) would have been a nice option. A very nice option.

Alex 163 BBb tubas are uncommon in the US, but play really well. Big bore, but don't let it scare you, they play nice.

Some of the earlier Yamaha 641's are not hateable either.

I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too, but I'm not thinking of it.

FWIW, I think most/all of the German rotary 4/4 BBb tubas play pretty easily. They aren't piston tubas, so it'll feel a little different from the King. But you'll need to let yourself settle in with it.

I think these are all good suggestions. Why not a Miraphone 186 BBb? They play pretty darned easy. Not the largest sound ever, but not lacking for most things.

.

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:45 pm

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm I wonder how the old VMI 3301 would factor in here?

Not at all, it's a piston horn with a medium/large bore.

The bore is kinda large but it’s got a long leadpipe like other ~3/4” bore rotary horns do. Sure, they are piston valves.

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:48 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:01 pm The old B&S 101 (and all stencils) might fit the bill. This particular one, I think, is too expensive. But this is the general idea:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/c/p ... 515659.htm

Pro-tip -- if the in/out of the first valve and fourth valve are at 45 degree angles like this, that's usually a good sign.

Some of the Cerveny tubas play really well, too. I know @greenbean has one for sale now, could be worth checking out.

The larger B&S rotary like the PT1 or 3103 (like the one Norm was selling for a good while, earlier this year) would have been a nice option. A very nice option.

Alex 163 BBb tubas are uncommon in the US, but play really well. Big bore, but don't let it scare you, they play nice.

Some of the earlier Yamaha 641's are not hateable either.

I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too, but I'm not thinking of it.

FWIW, I think most/all of the German rotary 4/4 BBb tubas play pretty easily. They aren't piston tubas, so it'll feel a little different from the King. But you'll need to let yourself settle in with it.

I think these are all good suggestions. Why not a Miraphone 186 BBb? They play pretty darned easy. Not the largest sound ever, but not lacking for most things.

I technically have one, and a mighty purdy one with 5 valves being finalized in it's build in nickel silver at the moment but it was supposed to be a flipper and money used for a "larger" horn. You saying I should keep it then? After playing a so- so example of another 186 last night at a friend's house I am not sure they have the "oomph" to carry a 45 piece band by itself if need be. I could be wrong.

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:08 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:45 pm

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:12 pm I wonder how the old VMI 3301 would factor in here?

Not at all, it's a piston horn with a medium/large bore.

The bore is kinda large but it’s got a long leadpipe like other ~3/4” bore rotary horns do. Sure, they are piston valves.

Does having a longer lead pipe make it play easier with piston valves that are of a larger bore or something? I've never thought about that...

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:12 pm

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:08 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:45 pm

Not at all, it's a piston horn with a medium/large bore.

The bore is kinda large but it’s got a long leadpipe like other ~3/4” bore rotary horns do. Sure, they are piston valves.

Does having a longer lead pipe make it play easier with piston valves that are of a larger bore or something? I've never thought about that...

It’s been speculated before that rotary valve horns typically have a larger bore because they come later in the bugle. Similarly, piston valve bores are relatively small to keep the piston stroke short and are usually paired with shorter lead pipes.

The VMI (some 20 years ago when I was around one) felt a lot like a typical German 4/4 with piston valve action.

Regarding the ability for a 186 to keep up, I was okay (now about 30 years ago) putting out enough sound with the 186 BBb for various band and orchestra work I was involved with as a youngster.

The best mouthpiece I found (for me) as a match to the 186/188 in terms of wattage and depth was a Bach 7.

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:10 pm I technically have one, and a mighty purdy one with 5 valves being finalized in it's build in nickel silver at the moment but it was supposed to be a flipper and money used for a "larger" horn. You saying I should keep it then? After playing a so- so example of another 186 last night at a friend's house I am not sure they have the "oomph" to carry a 45 piece band by itself if need be. I could be wrong.

Ok. I see where you’re coming from now. Some of that might depend on the group, but if I had to support a 45 piece group by myself, I would not be thinking 4/4 AT ALL. Not a 186 or 187. But that’s me. I would be getting at least a 5/4 BBb tuba. So flipping the purdy 186 and dropping the dough for a bigger tuba sounds spot on to me.

Me against 45 others? Go big or go home. Step up to 5/4+

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:13 pm

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:10 pm I technically have one, and a mighty purdy one with 5 valves being finalized in it's build in nickel silver at the moment but it was supposed to be a flipper and money used for a "larger" horn. You saying I should keep it then? After playing a so- so example of another 186 last night at a friend's house I am not sure they have the "oomph" to carry a 45 piece band by itself if need be. I could be wrong.

Ok. I see where you’re coming from now. Some of that might depend on the group, but if I had to support a 45 piece group by myself, I would not be thinking 4/4 AT ALL. Not a 186 or 187. But that’s me. I would be getting at least a 5/4 BBb tuba. So flipping the purdy 186 and dropping the dough for a bigger tuba sounds spot on to me.

Me against 45 others? Go big or go home. Step up to 5/4+

Still need it to have a relatively small/medium bore, rotary valve and not be an air hog like the 1291 or 191.

KingTuba1241X wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:23 pm Still need it to have a relatively small/medium bore, rotary valve and not be an air hog like the 1291 or 191.

Ok…
Small/medium bore
Rotary valves
Pleasing aesthetics
Support 45+

Hmm… it’s tough to meet all the criteria unless it’s a MW 25/JP 379.

http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4556

Those probably work fine also, provided you can find one. I remember the 3/4 (almost 186 sized) Rudy BBb having decent pitch and more sound than the Miraphone I owned (paired with a custom mouthpiece that had a large throat and was a funnel shape).

Provided the 4/4 has solid pitch (the BBb RM’s seem to be better than their CC counterparts), I’d keep an eye out for one of those also.

I had a Rudy 4/4 CC way back, and it was a great paying horn and plenty of sound. A Rudy 4/4 BBb would be pretty sweet. I've never seen one in my 20 years of tuba stuff though, not online or in person.

I was playing euphonium when Mike Nye advertised a Cerveny 601 four rotor BBb. My previous tubas were a Conn 20J, Mirafone 186, Mirafone 186 with a recording bell. So I went to try it and have never played a Kaiser tuba. To my surprise it was easy to blow and would not break part. The mouthpieces I used were a Helleberg 120 and a Dillon G5. So I sold the euphonium and bought the Cerveny. The Cerveny was surprisingly not as heavy as I thought it would be. If I could only find a group not 45 minutes away.

Have you tried a Kaiser tuba? I would suggest that if you could.

The only other suggestion would be a Mirafone 186 with a recording bell if you wanted to increase the sound.

Good luck!

rodgeman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:59 pm
Have you tried a Kaiser tuba? I would suggest that if you could.

If you were actually going to consider a Kaiser, that would open up possibilities. Here’s a model I have experience with:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2877

The only other suggestion would be a Mirafone 186 with a recording bell if you wanted to increase the sound.

IXNAY on the STHETICSAY!

Flip the script and get a Besson 983. It's the most fun you can have with your... Uh... Bass tuba mouthpiece.

Doc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:08 pm

rodgeman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:59 pm
Have you tried a Kaiser tuba? I would suggest that if you could.

If you were actually going to consider a Kaiser, that would open up possibilities. Here’s a model I have experience with:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2877

The only other suggestion would be a Mirafone 186 with a recording bell if you wanted to increase the sound.

IXNAY on the STHETICSAY!

Aren't kaisers air hogs though? Or, secondly...perhaps a 1 trick pony like the lap sousaphone?