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Thanks to everyone here who responds to all my questions. Your input has made the transition back into playing after a 20 year hiatus much easier. Here is yet another:

My new horn came with a Bach 18, which is what I used in high school. But at my full maturity as a player I was on a Conn Helleberg Standard. So I put in an order for one and when it arrived started playing it rather than the Bach. All of a sudden my intonation sucked big time! My pitches were all over the place and I just couldn’t center them. So I went back to the Bach and started having greater success. So, my questions are as follows: Should I stick with the 18 for now? Is my lack of success with the Helleberg because my embouchure is built up enough yet? Will I ever be able to use the Helleberg? And if I’m liking the Bach 18, is there some other more “advanced” mouthpiece that I should think about trying that will be good on pitch center with my still-not-fully-developed chops?

I would recommend just sticking with the Bach 18. The Bach 18 is an excellent all-purpose mouthpiece. As you get back into shape, you might eventually find something "better" for you, but if the 18 is working, I would stick with it

The prior post needed the words added, "for now." Use what works for now. As you re-develop your embouchure, keep the Helleberg handy. It may or may not work for you as your playing comes back. It is not uncommon to need a completely different mouthpiece years later due to physical changes in the player.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:16 pm The prior post needed the words added, "for now." Use what works for now. As you re-develop your embouchure, keep the Helleberg handy. It may or may not work for you as your playing come back. It is not uncommon to need a completely different mouthpiece years later due to physical changes in the player.

Thank you Captain Obvious

"For now"

As recently posted in another thread, a current H120S may not be the mouthpiece remembered from long ago.

I almost reported your post, because it made me feel like going to my safe space, petting a kitty cat, and eating ice cream.

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:35 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:16 pm The prior post needed the words added, "for now." Use what works for now. As you re-develop your embouchure, keep the Helleberg handy. It may or may not work for you as your playing come back. It is not uncommon to need a completely different mouthpiece years later due to physical changes in the player.

Thank you Captain Obvious

"For now"

I apologize if that was offensive to anyone (iiipopes). It was a really poor attempt at trying to be funny

I predict that you will be able to use whatever mouthpiece you like, just a matter of getting used to it. The Conn 120S is of course also an excellent all purpose mouthpiece. Over the years, a good deal has been written about the range of variation between different examples of mouthpieces like this, from that factory - in particular, the Bach 18, but maybe just because it's a very common mouthpiece. Maybe you got a good one.

There's also a history of significant variation in the Conn Helleberg. Most of the discussion about that has focused on the rim, which was at one point (late '60s?) rather flat, later somewhat more rounded. For me, the apex of Conn's tuba mouthpieces was the earlier Precision line, models 1, 2 and 3. The 1 and 3 models were rather specialized, but the 2 was more or less the Conn Helleberg of the day, and a great mouthpiece. Very similar in dimension to the current Conn 7B, but with a much more rounded edge to the rim. If you keep getting the Helleberg urge, you can probably find a Conn 2 on ebay for $20 or so.

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:35 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:16 pm The prior post needed the words added, "for now." Use what works for now. As you re-develop your embouchure, keep the Helleberg handy. It may or may not work for you as your playing come back. It is not uncommon to need a completely different mouthpiece years later due to physical changes in the player.

Thank you Captain Obvious

"For now"

It may be "obvious," but nobody else addressed the issue. So I surmise it isn't so "obvious" at all. Cheers to the OP getting back into playing.

DonO. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:06 pm And if I’m liking the Bach 18, is there some other more “advanced” mouthpiece that I should think about trying that will be good on pitch center with my still-not-fully-developed chops?

If you are liking the Bach 18 there is no reason to change.

If you are curious and just want to try something similar but a little larger, try a Bach 12??

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:53 am It may be "obvious," but nobody else addressed the issue. So I surmise it isn't so "obvious" at all.

Obvious is relative to the observer, apparently. I have to confess that I'm failing to address something right here that I believe is obvious to almost everyone.

donn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:58 am

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:53 am It may be "obvious," but nobody else addressed the issue. So I surmise it isn't so "obvious" at all.

Obvious is relative to the observer, apparently. I have to confess that I'm failing to address something right here that I believe is obvious to almost everyone.

So why not just post it and get it over with?

I guess the kinds of responses I was expecting were along the lines of “If you like the Bach 18, then you’ll REALLY love the (insert name of boutique mouthpiece maker here)”.

DonO. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:52 am I guess the kinds of responses I was expecting were along the lines of “If you like the Bach 18, then you’ll REALLY love the (insert name of boutique mouthpiece maker here)”.

This forum, mainly filled with curmudgeons, won’t really throw out a list of mouthpieces to try based on limited knowledge. If you went to Reddit, the tuba subreddit would be happy to.

That being said, if you like the Bach 18 but want “more” (when your chops are ready), the 12 and 7 exist. I used a Bach 7 for years and enjoyed it.

Otherwise, I’d say you need to get somewhere with a decent selection of mouthpieces on hand. @bloke has a reasonable trial period on his rims if you want to try out different contours, but personally I’d recommend getting your face together more before trying to figure all of that out.

It's not an unusual problem, and likely if you spent enough time with the Helleberg and then went back to the Bach 18, you'd have the opposite problem. As for developing/seeing over time - I have three mouthpieces I use. One I use when I haven't played in a long time and need a crutch to get back in shape. Next one up is my general all purpose mouthpiece that produces a better product than the first, but I need to be in shape for it (i.e., when I'm cold/out of shape, the first mouthpiece produces the better product; when I'm in shape, the second one does). And finally, when I am Very In Shape and have Very Big Tuba Things to play, I have a larger mouthpiece that produces more sound. Trade-off - it also produces worse intonation that I need to spend a few days locking in before a performance.

But you can get used to anything and lock anything in. Just takes practice and consistency.

To another point - There is nothing wrong with a Bach 18, and it's not an "immature" mouthpiece. You use what produces the best product at the time. In the U.S. a 24AW is considered a student mouthpiece, but in the UK, it gets an immense amount of use by high level players.

Schtick with the Bach 18, maybe even buy a Bach 12 once you outgrow the 18. I never really like Hellebergs, the 7B is kind of tolerable on piston horns but always prefered a shallower cup for better response.

DonO. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:52 am I guess the kinds of responses I was expecting were along the lines of “If you like the Bach 18, then you’ll REALLY love the (insert name of boutique mouthpiece maker here)”.

1. Don't overlook the obvious.

2. Always expect the unexpected.

3.

4.

DonO. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:52 am I guess the kinds of responses I was expecting were along the lines of “If you like the Bach 18, then you’ll REALLY love the (insert name of boutique mouthpiece maker here)”.

How about, if you like the Bach 18 ... what's the problem? Ha ha, just kind of joking, as someone with as many mouthpieces laying around as I have, I sure am not a model of restraint in this area. But I thought from your initial post that the problem really was, you don't like the Bach 18 as much as you like the Conn Helleberg.

Or, that's how the problem looked to you. Someone who knows how to work on playing technique might find that your technique habits from the old days are working against you here, that's what needs to change, and when it does you won't have any real constraint on what mouthpieces you can use. Coincidentally, one of the great boutique mouthpiece makers, Doug Elliott, also consults over online video and is reportedly very good at dealing with embouchure issues. (I'm assuming he still does, anyway.) I think there's a pretty good chance there's something like that going on, because the issues you describe go beyond what I'd expect from swapping mouthpieces, with a Conn 120S for heaven's sake which is a pretty ordinary piece.

Different mouthpieces are...different.

If some differences are strikingly positive, it's easy to become immediately excited about positive differences and to discount (or not notice, at first) negative ones.

One of the easiest ways to get many shoppers (at first) excited about a mouthpiece design (and this does NOT pertain to either of the mouthpieces mentioned in this thread) is to produce a mouthpiece with a gigantic throat diameter...and/or a really deep cup.

What's challenging - for mouthpiece sellers - is to get people excited about their products without employing any particularly blown-out dimensions or (per another past fad) overall bulk.

again...just like the "everything is sharp" thread, we're not being given much information (at least not compared to the voluminous options offered. )

My new horn...

I use a different mouthpiece with every instrument I own...and it's not because I'm a snooty-poot (though I may well be one). It's only because...
- I can.
- It makes things so much easier (thus, less practicing for more results).

I will be sticking with the Bach 18 until I get my chops built back up. Clearly I cannot handle the Helleberg the way I did 20 years ago. Also, the Helleberg worked well in my rotary horn, but I’m finding out this King is quite a different animal! Thank you all for the advice. I was afraid I was missing something but I guess not. That makes me feel better.