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As a comeback player I have recently become interested in starting to work on some solos. In my previous thread I asked for some guidance finding repertoire lists. One post suggested I search for “Tuba Audition List” and I could find repertoire lists for various colleges and universities. I did just that, and I was blown away! For context, I was a music education major in the 1970’s. We had a repertoire list (I wish I’d saved it) I with everything- etudes, studies, solos- coordinated with a level system. The levels ran from 1-10, and performance majors needed to reach level 10, which was determined by juries. Music ed needed only to reach level 8. I myself got to level 9 for graduation, having come in at a 3 as a freshman. Major solo works such as Vaughan Williams Concerto, Hindemith, Persechetti, and Wilder “Effie” were listed at level 10. That is to say, they were the end goal. Now, fast forwarding to today, many of these college entry audition requirements are asking incoming freshmen to perform VW, Hindemith, Persechetti, or “Effie” JUST TO GET IN. Wow. Just Wow. I had no idea the bar was so much higher now. My question is, if you are already at that level as an incoming freshman, where else is there to go? It almost seems like the professors are expecting professional level performance just to study with them. Sure makes their jobs easier I’ll bet.

Don “I’m just blown away”.

I got the same feeling when I saw what the kids in TX have to play to try out for All State band.

It ain’t Delaware in the late 70s!!

It completely depends on the school.

No school can function without warm bodies, and no studio teacher can function without them, either.

Some some schools can be very picky, some schools have to scrounge, and some schools are in-between.

I’m seeing that the requirements for teaching -anyone - from warm-body to promising-possible-future-professional - have tightened up much more than the entry requirements, as even the bottom schools are requiring top sheepskin - and also seem to be looking for other things that really don’t have anything to do with teaching or performance abilities.

I would say the majority of non-conservatory colleges require a something fast and something lyrical along with scales and potential sightreading. Some will also ask for solos from the "Class A" or whatever list. I have said this a million times, but I would rather hear someone play Bach Air and Bouree well then the Haddad Suite (at all) on an audition.

In 2005, I auditioned at 1 school (it is all I could afford). In addition, my lessons teacher got a gig at a very large district 10 minutes north and stopped showing up to ours, so I was without lessons. I was working on the Hindemith, but did the Telemann Adagio and Allegro for the audition and I had TMEA All State Etudes ready. I had the Telemann memorized from state solo and ensemble the year before (you had to memorize to go to state, and since this was my first time memorizing, I went easy).

From the other side, I would rather hear what you can do well than what you can sort of approach but not master. I have learned over the years the hard way

My son plays viola and is a high school senior. He's taken auditions at a few large public universities with very good music programs, including my Alma Mater (University of Maryland).

In the 1980's if you could spell viola you not only were admitted, you got money from the school just to play in the orchestra no matter what your major. They never had a full symphony orchestra because they never had the bodies. Now Maryland has TWO full-sized orchestras and a Viola studio of about 22-24 players. There weren't 24 string majors in 1985. Yes, the school invested heavily in the arts, built a world-class facility and hired world-class faculty and it shows. He MIGHT get in, he's quite good, but I heard several of the other viola players and so were they. They picked their own music but were encouraged to contact the Viola professor to discuss their selections before the audition. My son played about half of each of his two pieces for 5 members of the string faculty, then they interviewed him for another 7-8 minutes. So, the math is basically 4 spots per class, plus grad students. There were 6 viola players at the auditions for early admission.

The school said they offer enrollment to about half the people that apply, and about 60% accept. The other schools he applied to were similar in their breakdowns. ALL of them had way more applicants than spots. At some point it occurred to me that there were 100,000,000 more people in the US now that in 1985, but the number of colleges has been basically the same.

Requirements these days are pretty high, because demand is rather high. Of course there are still schools that struggle to attract students, but there are fewer than ever before in that position and a struggling music department is fair game for being eliminated (which has happened and further reduces the total slots). If I had my son's grades and scores I could have had my pick of 95% of the schools in this country, but right now my son has only two "accepted" in hand with several deferred for another month or so.

Yeah, it's crazy out there.

…and a talented young person – once they’ve been through some extensive training in their early 20s - might possibly end up with $6000 of part time college teaching work, and $4000 of per-service orchestra work…with only about $300,000 of debt.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:27 am …and a talented young person – once they’ve been through some extensive training in their early 20s - might possibly end up with $6000 of part time college teaching work, and $4000 of per-service orchestra work…with only about $300,000 of debt.

Seems like a worthwhile investment of money and time.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:27 am …and a talented young person – once they’ve been through some extensive training in their early 20s - might possibly end up with $6000 of part time college teaching work, and $4000 of per-service orchestra work…with only about $300,000 of debt.

Fortunately, unless things get super weird the college stuff is mostly covered, financially. That being said, while he hasn't said this I believe my son might be leveraging music to simply get admitted to Maryland at the very least. He has shown an interest in Meteorology and Computer Science as well. A friend of his with a 4.59 GPA and a 1490 SAT was already rejected for Maryland (not deferred) as he applied directly to Computer Science (which is a very competitive program nationally). That kid might actually get into Harvard and get money from them, but Maryland (in-state for him) said "thanks, but no".

College is a HUGE money machine. Different rant.

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:55 am College is a HUGE money machine. Different rant.

No Shirt!!

I’m telling my two kids - who think aren’t making enough money - to go to truck driver school.

Something tells me that we have an overabundance of artistes, desk-sitters, and yick-yackers - in the USA.

Brass instrument repair, plumbing and heating.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:37 am Brass instrument repair, plumbing and heating.

Though they may not seem that way to us, tubas and flutes are optional, whereas “a shelter that’s at least 50° inside” is probably closer to essentail.

Running indoor plumbing is pretty good too.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:24 am Running indoor plumbing is pretty good too.

(though I type very fast) a lot of bs typing:

Sometimes (if I'm offered a really reasonable price to do a bunch of tedious plumbing work), I will hire someone else to do plumbing work, but (particularly today, with all of the tinkertoy-esque no-solder/no flaring/no compression/no-skill-required connectors, plumbing is really quite easy (again, other than "getting into tight places", "freeing old horribly stuck stuff, and tearing holes in walls"). I've never hired anyone to replace a water tank, did one (years ago) that was both "gas" and "solder joints", the two that I did for this house (as it's now 22 years old) were astonishing easy (and - before completely replacing these two, I replaced their elements, several years previous - as their tanks were not yet rusted out), toilets are certainly easy. Even though new faucets are not all that difficult, they annoy me (upside-down/backwards underneath cabinets). My house features a generous crawl space. No pipes have ever frozen under there, but I have had to replace BOTH of the frost-free sillcocks (hose faucet with their washers located in a long brass tube - several inches inside the crawlspace) due to the fact that the licensed plumbers (who installed the originals) installed them slanting downhill - so they froze anyway.

I've also installed/replaced yard hydrants (and have had to tear out crappy-built ones and replace them with well-designed ones). That sorta sucks (digging/mud/salvaging pea gravel/etc.), but I'd actually prefer to replace a yard hydrant than be upside-down/backwards underneath a kitchen cabinet.

I flipped a house, years ago, shoehorned a 3/4 bath into a small master suite, and moved the washer/dryer connections into an adjacent closet. A plumber told me that the wall was too narrow for the connections, and would have to be shimmed out...so I did it all myself. I believe (eschewing plastic and modern connectors) I soldered everything (all copper), and I'm thinking I counted fifty-something joints. Another person (before closing up the wall) suggested testing for leaks. Admittedly, I was a bit too cocksure, but I told him that the only thing that would fail such a test would be "leaks", because there would be no leaks ...There were no leaks. (I sorta know how to solder.)

bloke "Don't install anything that's going to leak, don't install anything that's going to freeze, and $h!t runs downhill, and flipping houses sucks, because [1] it requires too many intermediaries and officials and [2] I insist on doing things as well as I would do them for myself."

Enjoy:

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html

tclements, you paint a bleak picture indeed. It probably isn’t far off the mark for our modern days though. Back when I was a music major, when dinosaurs ruled the earth (the 70’s), I did get a band directing job right out of school. A job which I left after only one year in disgust. At that time I was so turned against teaching I marched into an army recruiter’s office and declared my desire to audition as a tuba player for the Army band program. An audition was arranged, which I easily passed. There were actual projected openings, and I could have chosen posts in Washington state, Oklahoma, North Carolina, or Europe. I chickened out mostly because my parents were so upset about it. If I had gone that route my life would have turned out very differently. But I returned to teaching, and fortunately worked my way into better situations in better school systems. Point is, back in those days, there were opportunities in service bands and schools too. I feel badly for younger folks these days who want a music career. It is definitely tougher than it used to be.

The “full-time college tuba teacher” thing is a phenomenon that occurred in my lifetime. As our economy diminishes (and I’m not discussing here why it has, and why it will continue to shrink), states are not going to be able to fund frills anymore (casinos - rather that actually funding states’ grades 13 - 20 tertiary schools - merely impoverish their states’ residents - further enriching the corporate Cosa Nostra, so as their now: gambling-addicted residents don’t have any money to pay their state taxes, as this corrupt and presented as “for the children” scheme has been a disaster), and these positions - as well as many more that are equally nonessential - need to be done away with.

I’ve pointed this out over and over - and it triggers people every time I pointed out, but the degree programs for high school band directors is misguided in that they are basically “fantasy performance conservatory“ degrees (ie. with an absurdly inordinate amount of emphasis placed on the mastery of a single instrument) with a the boilerplate battery of brainwashing courses on the front end, and nonsense/kook-think education courses tacked on to the last year and a half or so of these degree programs.

It makes sense (were it that universities were sensible) for universities to outsource private studio teaching to experts in the community (perhaps scheduling such lessons at nights or weekends – around those experts real jobs), but universities also need to stop paying inordinate salaries to those who run them - as well as those who run their departments and those who act as their deans and other administration/oligarchy, as well as the construction companies that are hired to tear down perfectly good and extremely sturdily-built university facilities and building them back up to either architecturally resemble downtown Washington DC, super-upscale shopping malls, or a combination of the two. Funneling individuals hard-earned incomes towards such enterprises is not sustainable, and is part of what bankrupting states, as the federal government is already bankrupt many times over.
Finally, the federal jackboot on the neck of education – which was established in my lifetime, at the end of the 1970s at the end of a lame-duck administration - needs to be abolished.

Back when I was selecting an undergraduate college, one of the schools I was considering had a unique viewpoint on music education. Theirs was a five year program. For the first four years you took the same program as the performance majors. After 4 years they graduated. But if you were in education you had to spend an additional year of education courses/student teaching. When I asked for a rationale I was told “We have the same performance standards for music education students as we do for performance majors. We don’t believe in lowering standards for anyone.” Needless to say I took a pass on that. At the college I ultimately attended music education students needed to reach a level 8 out of 10 in performance, while applied majors needed to reach 10. Acknowledging the fact that music educators need to be competent on their instrument without necessarily being ready to audition for the New York Philharmonic. Of course there was nothing stopping a music education major from reaching a 10 if they chose to. I myself got to 9. That was certainly enough for me to do my job. As for the courses everyone routinely complains about, like music history, theory and harmony, form and analysis, etc., I always felt like they were useful because they enabled me to understand music from the inside out, thinking about music in a way most people don’t. I never tried to get esoteric, but I did always incorporate a little history and form into my lessons. I never thought just getting my students to play the right notes was enough. I wanted them to think about what they were playing, why I chose that particular piece, and what the composer was thinking when he or she wrote it. I don’t know how many of my colleagues used that approach, but it worked for me. And thus I never considered those courses a waste. Maybe I’m in the minority on that. But I’ve been there before.

Band directors really do not need to be able to perform as well - on any individual instrument - as band-director-degree college graduates are required to perform in their recitals.
More useful would be intermediate level mastery of most of the instruments they teach, and obtaining this widespread intermediate-level mastery prior to them beginning their teaching careers.
The problem is that - were these programs set up in this way - far fewer would enter these programs (due to being forced to face the reality that they are absolutely destined to be band directors, rather than fantasizing - via the longstanding pretend-conservatory model - that they are destined to be performers).

On the side (beyond band director degree requirements - were those requirements properly prioritized), concentration on one instrument in particular could certainly be elective, a double major, or a minor.

I kept meaning to post on this and am now finally getting around to it. I wonder what the standard is here. There are plenty of people these days who can get through the Vaughan Williams, but how many can actually play it? There is a vast difference between playing all the notes in order and putting on a performance.

I've heard plenty of people play a piece, and my initial thought is something along the lines of, "Sure, but with a sound like that, who cares?" I.e., go back to Rochut #1 and play it fluidly with a rich sound and intentional articulations, and then let's talk.

For some reason (I'm not complaining!) Hilary Hahn recorded the examples for my daughter's violin lesson book. Her performance of these rudimentary pieces shows more technical skill and artistry than many performances of the VW that I've heard. I'd accept her playing a grade 1 piece before most of those performances.

So. Having said that. I'll ask again - Even though the Vaughan Williams is on the audition list, what standard are the 17 and 18yo's achieving? And follow-up - What's the point?

To clarify - I'm sure some are playing it well. Maybe some play it very well. But for most kids, let them show what they can do to a high level and work from there.