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I thought about putting this in the “smaller Helleberg-like mouthpieces” thread, but I thought it was worthy of its own discussion. Let’s start with Conn Hellebergs. There are only two. The “Standard” is called the 120S. And the slightly smaller one the 7B. What do the numbers designate? Do either the 120 or the 7 have any relationship whatsoever to any spec? I get that the “S” means standard, but what does “B” mean? And since there’s only 2 in their lineup, wouldn’t “model 1 (or A)” and “model 2 (or B)” make a lot more sense? And while I’m at it, let me also vent against Bach sizes, which many other makers imitate. The numbers themselves again seem to have no relationship to any spec (18, 25) and the numbers get bigger as the mouthpiece gets smaller! Would visa versa make more sense? And what about 24AW? I know the “w” is wide rim, but what’s the A for? Add to all this confusion that every other mouthpiece maker except the ones that are Bach imitators uses their own proprietary numbering system, every one of which is completely divorced from any spec or measurement. And then you have the “signature” models, which tells you nothing other than which of your tuba heroes endorses it. It is incomprehensible to me how ANYONE can negotiate this maze and find their ideal mouthpiece without investing potentially thousands of dollars into mouthpieces that don’t work out, and then you’re stuck with them like an albatross around your neck. Ok, rant over. Curious to see the responses.

Fortunately, you can sell duds here or elsewhere.

Baltimore brass has a used inventory you can try or trade.

Still gets costly though...

Check it out:
http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/tuba.cfm

And this:
https://bandtuning.com/tuba-mouthpiece-sizes/

More extensive with diagrams of the dimensions:
https://housermouthpiece.net/wp-content ... heetv5.pdf

Mouthpiece names are mouthpiece names. The fact that they are numbers just means that they are not letters. Comparing them by name is about as helpful as comparing cars by model name.

The PT (now RT) mouthpieces are quite nice, but don't look for a lot of logic in that numbering system either.

bort2.0 is one size, and the next size size up is doc...
...so there's yet another non sequitur.

"Nose" means one thing, so why aren't cheekbones named "nose-bones", and why aren't cheeks named "non-cheekbones" or "teeth-covers" ?

(I have never seen any relationship whatsoever between the suddenly-seemed-to-appear-in-my-lifetime "120" and the "7B" - which somewhat refers back - in design - to the original "Helleberg" mpc's... At least, both their designations do not involve very many characters.)

a creator of sensible nomenclature:


"喉舌" is shorter than "mouthpiece".

Numbering schemes are pretty much specific to the maker with clones being the possible exception, e.g. model 18 and 24AW. Still, probably half of the mouthpiece manufacturers that make a model 18 make them different from one another.

As already mentioned, Dave Werden's chart is the most comprehensive. There used to be some other charts that I had bookmarked, but they seem to no longer be maintained.

Some popular references:
Bach Mouthpieces (PDF)
Perantucci Mouthpieces -- Covers RT and Mr. P models, approximately
Giddings/Webster Mouthpieces
Denis Wick mouthpieces
Miraphone Mouthpieces
Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces
Kelly Mouthpieces
Josef Klier Mouthpieces -- click on the + next the model line to see the range of sizes

Mouthpiece Express also has a tuba mouthpiece size chart, although it may need updating.

Oh -- per the maze navigation question: Ask for recommendations, buy used where possible, sell or trade what you don't like.

Some makers/sellers will let you do trials as well--take advantage of it.

hrender wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:12 pm Oh -- per the maze navigation question: Ask for recommendations, buy used where possible, sell or trade what you don't like.

Some makers/sellers will let you do trials as well--take advantage of it.

You can go on ahead on, Hal, but I ain't tradin' wich ya'.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:22 pm

You can go on ahead on, Hal, but I ain't tradin' wich ya'.

“I dunno, they were jammies!”

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:46 am The fact that they are numbers just means that they are not letters.

I almost spit out my coffee. Thanks.

Thank you all for the links to the other sites with useful info. I think Werden’s chart show the most potential for straightening this out in my mind. I automatically do not trust the information on the bandtuning site because they can’t spell “Helleberg”!

That “band tuning” site makes the claim that a Bach 7 is a good standard size tuba mouthpiece while promoting the PT50 as a good student level larger mouthpiece. I think the Bach 7 is larger?

They must’ve gotten the Bach 7 tuba mouthpiece confused with the trumpet mouthpiece. The 18 or 24A(W) are typically far better for kids.

Anyhow, Bach, Schilke, and Yamaha have some consistency with their numbering schemes.

Yeah, I liked my Bach 7 (and the guy who bought my tuba did too, so there it went), but it's their largest. I don't remember ever hearing any explanation of the Bach size numbers, but note that gauge numbering often goes in that direction -- 14 gauge wire is thinner than 12 gauge, a 20 gauge shotgun barrel is narrower than 12 gauge, etc. It seems to me that shotgun gauges refer to the number of spherical units of that size that fit in a tube of some fixed length.

As for the charts ... maybe tuba mouthpieces are large enough that the differences show up more reliably, but mouthpiece measurement isn't a science. It's very possible for a mouthpiece that everyone knows is smaller, to show up as larger in the manufacturer's published information. Mouthpieces have a rounded, sloped opening, and when they're measuring hair's breadth differences, it matters a lot exactly where you place the calipers, especially when the mouthpieces we're comparing don't have even nearly the same rim shape. Nor do they measure what matters - the rim opening is not the most important thing about how a mouthpiece plays, and you can't get to the bottom of it by adding a throat diameter either.

Old Conn tuba mpc’s #’s and Bach #’s work the same way:

Smaller numbers are bigger mouthpieces.

Mouthpiece dimensions are extremely complex. I can’t imagine a way to label mouthpieces to identify any mouthpiece’s complete dimensions to a T. Were that even possible, I couldn’t imagine any maker wishing to openly identify all of those dimensions.

I like what you do, bloke. Categorizing them into categories like “Symphony”, “Imperial”, and “Solo” is the most helpful system I’ve run across.