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Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:13 am
by pjv
Ok, it's not really valveless. It just looks that way.
Kind of a swivel valve, but different.
Clever.
There's a video of Zoltan Kiss floating around somewhere showing off it's dexterity. I can't find it right now.
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 am
by bloke
It requires sitting down and thinking about it for a minute, but it’s not much different from those cone shaped “axial flow“ valves in the way that it works, but obviously this system is more likely to get screwed up - due to how large and delicate it is. If any of that is bent just a little bit, it’s not going to work, is it?
sidebars:
- I am not a champion-of/apologist-for axial flow valves.
- The person who built this did a really nice job.
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:53 pm
by UncleBeer
First, I wonder how well the interface would seal. Also, I'd think the increased mass of metal that's moving would tend to move the instrument on the player's face more than what most folks would find tolerable. My two cents...
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:54 pm
by TubātōTubŏtō
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 am
sidebars:
- I am not a champion-of/apologist-for axial flow valves.
Further down this rabbit hole, sorry: I’m curious why that is? Do you dislike the playing characteristics, or does it have more to do with the relatively small wearing surface/coating problem?
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 pm
by bloke
TubātōTubŏtō wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:54 pm
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 am
sidebars:
- I am not a champion-of/apologist-for axial flow valves.
Further down this rabbit hole, sorry: I’m curious why that is? Do you dislike the playing characteristics, or does it have more to do with the relatively small wearing surface/coating problem?
I find that - in order to move - it must leak...and leak a great deal. The reason is due to the fact that the large end of the cone shape is BOTH an air-seal surface and a (much too large - in my view, due to the design of the thing "painting itself into a corner") bearing surface.
OK...yes...Playing slide tube inside-to-outside fit (regardless of the make of trombone) is ALSO sloppy, but there are also water droplets (or some sort of concoction) in-between those tubes, as well as that leak being mitigated by (on each tube) about 7 sq in of surface area.
This particular gadget:
It occurs to me that - after several thousand "flicks" that hunk of pipe is going to begin to flex/twist/distort...Even too-fast marching band "horns up" movements can begin to f-up trombone playing slides, so...
The admiration goes to the person who put this thing together and got it to work.
People - such as myself - who sit at their home computers in their nightclothes and attempt to poke holes in others' achievements are not the ones deserving of any admiration.
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:33 pm
by TubātōTubŏtō
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 pm
TubātōTubŏtō wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:54 pm
bloke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:05 am
I find that - in order to move - it must leak...and leak a great deal. The reason is due to the fact that the large end of the cone shape is BOTH an air-seal surface and a (much too large - in my view, due to the design of the thing "painting itself into a corner") bearing surface.
Are you familiar with the Olson axial variant from Instrument Innovations? It seems to solve those issues, but maybe you think axial valves are just fixing a problem that doesn’t exist. I’ve heard that JP333 bass is impressive. I’d like to try one next to my Edwards (which sports large, heavy, bugle extending cones)
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:45 pm
by bloke
I thought the K valve that Bach introduced offered a round bore and a nearly airtight rotor, because the air exited the sides as with a traditional rotor.
People claimed that they played “stuffy“ – and they were right: Every one that I encountered had its cork plate mounted wrong - in the rotation the clock face on the ends of their valve casings. Once I moved their cork plates where they belonged, drilled new holes, tapped new threads, and they (finally) functioned as they were designed, those were the best blankety-blank F-attachment valves I’ve ever tried.
Re: Interesting: rotorless valve system
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:51 pm
by bloke
The Bach K valve addressed all the issues that trombone players wish to have addressed with F attachment valves, but often play stuffy, because so many of their cork plates were mounted with incorrect alignment. Once new holes are drilled and tapped for the cork plates, those things work monstrously well.
