some new (to me) gear, have questions

[Nworbekim]

i found a 186 5 valve BBb horn close enough to drive and see/play and while i was there the guy had a meinl-weston 2145 CC also with a 5th valve. i tried them both and brought them home.

i've never owned/played a 5 valve instrument so i come to you for some instruction on usage and tuning... i know on the BBb's i've always tuned my 4th to C... what are the 5th valves tuned to? what situations and where are you using the 5th valve?

another question is about the mental process of playing instruments in different keys... is it a problem switching back and forth? a problem keeping them separate in your brain?

i thought i'd have a go at C and find out if my old tired brain can remember which horn its on and get the right fingers down.

i'm excited about playing again. when covid came, all my bands quit and haven't restarted yet. i kept my playing going for a while but i began to get depressed about not getting to play anywhere and finally stopped. i haven't played a dozen notes in a year i guess... this has my spirit back and i'm ready to get back to it.

[the elephant]

First of all you need to make sure what length of 5th each is. The norm for today on both tubas is a flat whole step. Some older CCs have a flat 23 5th valve.

If you have a flat whole step, think of it as a 1st valve for when your 4th is down, like an F attachment on a trombone. On a CC that means that low G would be whatever you have the horn tuned to (13 for me, 4 for some) and Gb (24 for most), and then F would be 45. It replaces the sharp 14 and the flat 124 with no slide pull. So 54. A flat major 3rd (23) is a bit weirder, but to start with: low F would be 235. Each horn has to be tuned up and then you have to figure out what fingerings work and which need a slide pull or push. They are not perfect, but they help a lot on a CC, less so on a BBb.

On a BBb the same notes would be

flat M2 5th
low Eb 45

flat M3 5th
low Eb 235

[bloke]

Since I’ve just never seen a recent-vintage 5-valve B-flat 186, I’m going to guess it’s probably from the 1960s or 1970s, and the fifth valve circuit is the long style.
At first, experiment with the fifth valve in combination with different combinations of the first three valves playing pitches below the staff and way below the staff, and teach yourself what they do.

With the C instrument, the fifth valve loop will not only be shorter, but it will be proportionally shorter.
Play around with that fifth valve beginning in combination with valves 2-3, then 4, then other random combinations. Your ear will tell you which combinations are useful and which ones are not.

You won’t be needing that valve in the staff, unless you happen to find some handy special uses for it,

I’m sure there are fingering charts on the Internet or for both the short type of fifth valve and the long type, and a couple of those charts might even be correct.

I could have posted charts - both for long-5th-valve B-flat and short-5th-valve C here, but I honestly believe you will learn more by messing around, working on focusing the tuning of different combinations, and finding the useful ones on your own.

[bort2.0]

Congrats on the two tubas! Let's see them!

In terms of switching back and forth, I think you might have an easier time with these particular tubas since they are pretty different from each other. That is, they will look, feel, and sound different from each other, and that might help with the mental connection to fingerings.

And it's good to hear that this is keeping you interested and in the game. The last few years, I've bought and sold stuff not only in the quest for the best horn, but because it keeps me invested (time, $, and thought) during a time of my life (COVID, little kids, grad school) where I really don't get to play very much. You all think I'm nuts. I just think I'm doing what I want to do to keep myself active and involved. It's not like being 25, single, and playing 4 nights per week.

Again, congrats on the new tubas!

[Nworbekim]

this helps... thank you...

i'll get some pictures shortly...

the C is the older of the two... considering my chops are in such terrible shape, it does sound really good to me. did i say the receiver was larger than all my other instruments? the MP's i usually use fit so loosely they slide out if the horn is tilted too far. i have a no-name that fits and there was a perantucci 50s in the case... that he showed me that it fit. i sterilized it and both MP's play about alike, they even look similar. i don't know where the no-name came from... maybe the 3/4 JP?

i was told the 186 was an early 2000 model with i think i remember a 17.5" bell? it's a little tall for me so i'll have to get a stand to rest it on instead of resting it on the seat. the difference between the sounds of the king and the 186 surprised me... the 186 feels quite larger so far as the air required. when i go back to the king with the same wind, i'm really loud! it had a mouthpiece with the word WILLIWAW engraved on the side. i think it's stainless over titanium? it's a brighter sound than i like but i'm going to try it for a while... i really prefer the deeper cups sound. trying different MP's on it today, i think the Bach 7 sounds best but that may change as i get into better shape.

the 186 has a hard case (not original miraphone) and an alteiri bag, the meinl has an alteiri bag, no hard case.

[Nworbekim]

Those early 2145s are pretty nice. It’s probably a Euro shank receiver.

I always liked a Bach 7 with my 186BBb and my 188.

[bloke]

The dating of your 186 is a head scratcher - regarding the length of the fifth circuit, at least without pictures.

If you would like to pursue the “figure it out yourself“ fifth valve stuff as I suggested, messing around an octave above the very low range sometimes makes it even easier to figure out.
The *octave higher intonation will be slightly off, but not far off.
————————
*All of that cylindrical tubing really tends to distort the taper of an instrument, and overtones tend to become more and more out of tune.

[the elephant]

… mouthpiece with the word WILLIWAW engraved on the side. i think it's stainless over titanium?

That is a Giddings & Webster mouthpiece and it is solid stainless steel. No titanium. (I don't think you can plate steel over titanium anyway.) They don't plate anything. If it appears to be titanium then that would be solid, also.

Here is the current sales page with a description FYI…

https://www.gwmouthpieces.com/collectio ... mouthpiece

His biggest one is the Bayamo. I used one for years. It works well on some horns, and on others, it is too big to give a really clear focus. I eventually sold it when the only tuba I used it with was sold. I did not like it on my other horns. Still, it is fun to play on. I have never used the Williwaw.

All the names are of recurring storms. I think there is a description of each storm for each mouthpiece, or at least he used to do that. But you can look up each name to see what it means.

[Nworbekim]

i was playing the horn while he was talking and maybe misunderstood... i heard the word titanium and stainless steel. i tested it with a magnet while ago and it doesn't attract. i think stainless does.

i played it a few minutes but i really think it's too bright for my "vision" of how a tuba should sound in an ensemble... for solo lit i think it would/will be good... if i still played that kind of stuff. i'm too lazy these days.

out of curiosity i think i might check and see if i can get an approximate date on production of the horns from the serial numbers. i'm not sure if cornucopia does them or not. i found my york & sons Eb's on there...

i found a finger chart i'll work on those a little afterwhile. back in the days of teaching, i had little trouble retaining fingerings for the band instruments and switching from one to another was no problem... using a euph i used to play everyone's parts and transpose from whatever to whatever and actually got pretty good at it... but that was a couple decades ago. i'll have to see if my brain is still agile enough.

[hrender]

G&W offer titanium as well, so if your williwaw is non-magnetic, it’s titanium. I’m sure someone will buy it from you if you don’t want it.

[Mary Ann]

Some stainless is magnetic and some is not; depends on the iron content. Generally in flatware, the "higher priced" stainless tends to not be magnetic. Cheap stuff usually is, in flatware. That of course is no comment on mouthpieces.

My CC had a 2+3 5th valve, and I just loved it. I used it by itself....one valve per note from two-leger-line C to the C above it. Blows more freely the fewer valves down. That tuba had an incredible lowest octave on it, too, and I figured it had partially to do with that 2+3 fifth valve. I'd have another 184 if I could lift it. I always wanted to get a 2+3 5th for my NStar because it would have been, for me, SO much easier to play and SO much less stuffy in the low end. So give that a really good go before you go thinking about putting in a flat whole step fifth valve. People tend to get in habits based on what they learned on, and since the more "modern trend" is a flat whole step...that's what people are used to and like, but I find it requires more valves to be down for the low range. My first tuba, the MW 182 F, had a flat whole step, and in retrospect I wish I could have put a 2+3 on it because I think it would have been much easier to play.

[the elephant]

What I was saying is that G&W does not plate their mouthpieces. It is either solid stainless or titanium. In my experience, titanium mouthpieces are lighter, more gray-looking, and sort of brownish in a certain light. Stainless mouthpieces generally are darker, more of a black look to the surface like chrome. At least the high-grade stainless used by mouthpiece makers. (Stainless hardware is generally a light-colored, very soft allow, unlike what is used in mouthpieces.)

Also, regarding magnetic qualities: A quote from some website in the UK says, "In most cases, stainless steel varieties with iron in their composition are magnetic. If the alloy has an austenitic crystal structure, then it's not magnetic." So not being magnetic is not a determinant for which metal was used. Being magnetic, though, would be.

The simplest way to tell is to call G&W and ask. They may want a photo, but I am sure they can determine this for you. As said above, you will be able to sell this here if you do not want it. (888) 787-6377

EDIT: MA beat me to it!

[Mark]

i found a finger chart i'll work on those a little afterwhile. back in the days of teaching, i had little trouble retaining fingerings for the band instruments and switching from one to another was no problem... using a euph i used to play everyone's parts and transpose from whatever to whatever and actually got pretty good at it... but that was a couple decades ago. i'll have to see if my brain is still agile enough.

You can "transpose" from your BBb fingerings to C by thinking whole step lower from the written note; but I suggest you not do that. In the long run, it's just better and easier to learn the fingerings.

[jtm]

My CC had a 2+3 5th valve, and I just loved it. I used it by itself....one valve per note from two-leger-line C to the C above it. Blows more freely the fewer valves down. That tuba had an incredible lowest octave on it, too, and I figured it had partially to do with that 2+3 fifth valve. I'd have another 184 if I could lift it. I always wanted to get a 2+3 5th for my NStar because it would have been, for me, SO much easier to play and SO much less stuffy in the low end.

I know a fellow who, within the past four years, ordered a new 188 with the longer 5th valve circuit. I've no idea how much that cost, but he made it sound like that was a common option, so there must be enough customers who prefer that.

[bort2.0]

I nearly bought a long 5th valve slide for my Miraphone 1291 CC when I had it... but ended up buying a 1292 leadpipe with that money instead.

Wasn't super expensive at the time, IIRC.

[Nworbekim]

i am experiencing what some called the extremely SHORT tuning slide on the CC. right now i'm going to blame it on flabby chops. i don't guess there's any way to "fix" that besides having someone add length? (and get my chops in shape - but what if it isn't all chops?)

i started the process this evening. it feels funny to be writing fingers under notes

[bloke]

In my view (??), the 5-valve version of the 2144 (ie: no tuning range) is flawed, but people bought ‘em.