TubaForum.net

1960's Ampeg bass amp:
"Man...I love that bass."

2020's Gallien Krueger bass amp:
"Man...I love that clarity."

...and yes, BOTH of these manufacturers existed SEVERAL DECADES PRIOR to those reference dates, but I'm referring to MUSICIANS' TASTES, and NOT to product-line introductions nor founding dates of companies.

Tastes change, they never change across-the-board, and not everyone is going to be prompted to sell and re-buy due to (even their own) tastes changing, but - when close to half (who express preferences) begin to prefer something different - it's noticed, isn't it?

...and equipment tastes are never really driven by patrons/consumers and nor are they driven by band leaders/music directors, are they?
They're driven buy higher-profile musicians - and by those who follow them, yes?

I suspect that I'm seeing the front-end of a trend towards (not necessarily smaller, but) clearer-sounding tubas...away from on "old-school Ampeg-ish" and towards "other-school GK-ish".

I know I've posted about this topic quite a bit before ("Hey bloke...not friggin' again..." ), and I've admitted to jumping on the big-bass-bandwagon, having bought (yet ridded myself of) several 6/4 C (as well as one B-flat) tubas. I always found, though, that I was looking for ways to make the sound "jump" out of them more effectively. One of them (which had been a couple of hundred miles south of me for several years), I greatly altered, so as it really didn't much sound like a typical 6/4 C tuba, anymore...and the off-the-shelf (and far-and-beyond, most expensive) one that I tend like better than all the rest offers many of the same (more clear, less foggy) sonic characteristics.

To me, recordings (of - to my ears and discrimination - the finest players) always sound better (alone or in an ensemble) when they are playing clearer-sounding instruments with more conservative size expansion (in the larger half or two-thirds of the instruments).

Oddly (contrarily/self-antagonistically...against my own better judgment), I'm probably headed off to look at yet another widely-expanding one, in a few weeks. I hope I don't get sucked in, but I'm already sucked in enough to go look at it.

Nearly every guitar store features at least one full-length mirror...hmm...

Now that the Fan fretted guitar patent has expired, we are seeing all of the "Multiscale" being offered to us gear heads.

CCC

The struggle is real

2 X 13s or 8 X 10 cabs.

I’ve eschewed a few of the 6/4’s because the seemed to not have the drive gear needed to offer a specific clarity of sound I like, but there are some 6/4’s that definitely do offer that clarity (at the cost of the umbrella). I’m in search of two kids of sounds, both of which I can point to a specific recording and say “I want that”. One of those sounds is a definite blend of clarity and resonance, and that’s hard to find. The other I am confident I can find much more easily.

I’ve had a (very high-profile) player (telephone call to blokeplace) refer to the typical 6/4 C sound (as a player of one, who was sort of wishing that - and wondering what if - they had avoided that phenom) as “the Hollywood sound”.

The tall Kaisers seem to have a more "immediate" sound that is also potentially voluminous. There seems to have been a small resurgence in them (i.e. Wessex started offering one), although they do not seems to have taken off like the York-a-phones have in the last 30+ years. They also seem to be almost exclusively BBb horns.

No… Just that big fat sousaphone/recording bass type of sound that 6/4 tubas tend to somewhat emit… typical of popular music played by orchestras in old movies.
They are anything but ignorant.
When I move from one of those things back to a normal-sized tuba, and hear the sound that first comes out of the bell, I realize how I’ve been having to overplay to make one of those things sound like I was only “playing” it.

Rudy 5/4 BBb -- clarity or umbrella?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:52 pm Rudy 5/4 BBb -- clarity or umbrella?

Based on my experience playing a CC version? Best of both worlds. Great horns. Not the excess of treble overtones that get lost in the ensemble once anyone else is playing. But big horns that can produce a blanket under the group. And, frankly, they can speak very clearly when played carefully. Listen to any of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony recordings from the last several years on YouTube. Big ol' Rudy BBb sounding GLORIOUS.

I've said it a lot, but I'll chime in with it again here: 6/4 York-style tubas sound great for auditions when being played solo. And they can sound good on recordings when the mix can be altered after-the-fact and they are mic'd by a competent sound guy. Sitting in a hall listening to a live orchestra, I can count on one hand the times I've been impressed with how they sound in a large group.

I would and do prefer horns that don't waste energy making overtones that will get lost in the hall and instead focus the energy put into them on the overtones that are going to cut through the group.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm Based on my experience playing a CC version? Best of both worlds. Great horns. Not the excess of treble overtones that get lost in the ensemble once anyone else is playing. But big horns that can produce a blanket under the group. And, frankly, they can speak very clearly when played carefully. Listen to any of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony recordings from the last several years on YouTube. Big ol' Rudy BBb sounding GLORIOUS.

I've said it a lot, but I'll chime in with it again here: 6/4 York-style tubas sound great for auditions when being played solo. And they can sound good on recordings when the mix can be altered after-the-fact and they are mic'd by a competent sound guy. Sitting in a hall listening to a live orchestra, I can count on one hand the times I've been impressed with how they sound in a large group.

I would and do prefer horns that don't waste energy making overtones that will get lost in the hall and instead focus the energy put into them on the overtones that are going to cut through the group.

From behind the bell, when I play my PT6-P clone, the clarity seems amazing compared with my 188. Same mouthpiece, same player. Maybe the excess of treble overtones you mention above. American vs German sound concept? The 188 seems to provide less behind the bell clarity (to me) and more of what I think (hope) are overtones that are going to cut through the group. From everything I've read, the 188, or any horn, needs to be assessed out in the hall with an ensemble to really understand this. What you are saying here very much makes sense.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm I would and do prefer horns that don't waste energy making overtones that will get lost in the hall and instead focus the energy put into them on the overtones that are going to cut through the group.

Which overtones are which?

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:50 pm

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm I would and do prefer horns that don't waste energy making overtones that will get lost in the hall and instead focus the energy put into them on the overtones that are going to cut through the group.

Which overtones are which?

In my experience, higher overtones, like those produced in the York style horns, get eaten up by the ensemble. The lower, closer-to-the-fundamental overtones make it out into the hall and allow you to hear the tuba part. If you're listening for it. I've mimed my part enough during rehearsals as an experiment to know that even conductors don't actually care about the tuba part.

Worth wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pm

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm Based on my experience playing a CC version? Best of both worlds. Great horns. Not the excess of treble overtones that get lost in the ensemble once anyone else is playing. But big horns that can produce a blanket under the group. And, frankly, they can speak very clearly when played carefully. Listen to any of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony recordings from the last several years on YouTube. Big ol' Rudy BBb sounding GLORIOUS.

I've said it a lot, but I'll chime in with it again here: 6/4 York-style tubas sound great for auditions when being played solo. And they can sound good on recordings when the mix can be altered after-the-fact and they are mic'd by a competent sound guy. Sitting in a hall listening to a live orchestra, I can count on one hand the times I've been impressed with how they sound in a large group.

I would and do prefer horns that don't waste energy making overtones that will get lost in the hall and instead focus the energy put into them on the overtones that are going to cut through the group.

From behind the bell, when I play my PT6-P clone, the clarity seems amazing compared with my 188. Same mouthpiece, same player. Maybe the excess of treble overtones you mention above. American vs German sound concept? The 188 seems to provide less behind the bell clarity (to me) and more of what I think (hope) are overtones that are going to cut through the group. From everything I've read, the 188, or any horn, needs to be assessed out in the hall with an ensemble to really understand this. What you are saying here very much makes sense.

Most of my experience with a PT6 (rotor) was with a group that it was way too big for. So I can't base any real opinions on my experience there. And somehow I've never played a 188.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:52 pm Rudy 5/4 BBb -- clarity or umbrella?

Based on my experience playing a CC version? Best of both worlds. Great horns. Not the excess of treble overtones that get lost in the ensemble once anyone else is playing. But big horns that can produce a blanket under the group. And, frankly, they can speak very clearly when played carefully. Listen to any of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony recordings from the last several years on YouTube. Big ol' Rudy BBb sounding GLORIOUS.

That's encouraging! I've never played my Rudy, and I'm beyond ready for the tuba to be ready for me!

And thanks for the heads up about recordings. I hadn't found many other Rudy 5/4 BBb recordings on YouTube except for Steve Rosse's stuff.

I'll be listening to Frankfurt Radio Symphony playing Brahms 2 tonight, while I drive to rehearsal to play Brahms 2.

.

I'd like to think my new Alex 163 is some of both. I'm still learning the horn, which is much different than the old ones. It can definitely "hug" the ensemble with sound, but can also be clear on the parts that need to cut through. I know I will get some trash talk about this, but, I think the one horn that - in the right hands - can do it all is the 60s-70s Mirafone 186. Your mileage may vary.

Cleverly and musically, he compensates by putting a lot of front on his sound. Further, the Yamaha (when he alternately chooses to use that instrument) is arguably the best of all of those, though many seem to disagree with me.

tofu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:52 am You know who achieves a remarkable amount of clarity and the sound really jumps out at you on a big 6/4 is Gene P. Every time I hear him in Orchestra Hall that thought always crosses my mind is the remarkable amount of clarity of sound he gets out of a big 6/4.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:46 pm

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:14 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:52 pm Rudy 5/4 BBb -- clarity or umbrella?

Based on my experience playing a CC version? Best of both worlds. Great horns. Not the excess of treble overtones that get lost in the ensemble once anyone else is playing. But big horns that can produce a blanket under the group. And, frankly, they can speak very clearly when played carefully. Listen to any of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony recordings from the last several years on YouTube. Big ol' Rudy BBb sounding GLORIOUS.

That's encouraging! I've never played my Rudy, and I'm beyond ready for the tuba to be ready for me!

And thanks for the heads up about recordings. I hadn't found many other Rudy 5/4 BBb recordings on YouTube except for Steve Rosse's stuff.

I'll be listening to Frankfurt Radio Symphony playing Brahms 2 tonight, while I drive to rehearsal to play Brahms 2.

Their Mahler 6 is incredible in general. And it has the solos in the 4th mvt so you can hear just how clear that BBb can be.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:33 am Their Mahler 6 is incredible in general. And it has the solos in the 4th mvt so you can hear just how clear that BBb can be.

Not sure if this is the horn in question, but it sounds good. Some tutti stuff at the 15:50 mark.