TubaForum.net

In my life, I've owned three instruments that were "brand new":

- a Cerveny Piggy in 1985
- a Miraphone 1291 CC in 200... 9? ish?
- and Horns X and Y, which were built in China

The Piggy came out of the case and off I went. It's possible my private teacher in high school (who coordinated the purchase of three of these for his students) prepped the horn in some way, I don't recall.

The 1291 had a big ol' chunk of buffing wheel in the 4th valve slide that was constantly fouling up the horn with grey sludgy water. It popped out on the second bath and everything was great after that. I was using Al Cass oil at the time so no concerns about oil contamination. The 4th valve tubing was also VERY much out of alignment but I wasn't so concerned about that given it's layout.

Horn X is a large piston F that will need some looking over, which was expected. Slides need to be aligned at the very least but a quick visual look with my scoping tools show clean solder joints and good port alignment. It's a brass horn, lacquered, but has a bit of "green" on the inside which makes me think a chem clean wouldn't hurt but it's been over 35 years since my last new non-silver instrument.

Horn Y is a large piston CC that seems good to go, alignments all look good and the amateur scope inspection seems good.

I'm planning on using synthetic oils (Resilience) on both X and Y.

AS A GENERAL RULE how much "prep" could one expect on a new instrument to make it 'ready to go' after delivery? I'm hoping to get the feedback of both sellers and repair folks so I can plan accordingly with my actions and expectations.

Of biggest concern to me is switching to synthetic oil and slide lubes. I know when I started using Hetmans on my 1291 it was necessary to clean out the horn - I'm guessing regular oils don't play well with synthetics, and Resilience says the same things. Are we talking soap-and-water bath or is a good wipe down of valves, slides, etc sufficient before applying synthetics?

Oh, and I'm using X and Y for now because there's a story that is still unfolding for both, so I don't want to spoil that :-)

Other people report differently, but I’ve never had any trouble putting any type of oil on top of any other type of oil - with any of my personally owned, genuinely clean, and trouble free instruments.

I always tend to suspect something in the instrument, when people (in my view) misdiagnose the cause of their problems as “oil mixing”.

old: lime deposits or sludge
new: buffing dirt or solder acid
new SHOW DEMO: “spit stuck” (requires two or three sentences to explain, so I hope that two words will suffice)

The friend of any new (or old) instrument is to drench its valveset with oil every time it is played. The cheapest oil (which I use on all of my instruments - none of which I am willing to sell… in other words, I’m really fond of all of them, and would purchase more expensive oil - if I absolutely needed to - for them) is so-called “ultrapure” lamp oil by the gallon.

Many people tell me in emails, texts, and over the phone that they have really cleaned out their instruments and their valves still stick. When they finally bring them to me, I almost always discover that there is dirt hidden in the knuckles immediately leading into the valve casings. They never clean those knuckles, because they are difficult to clean - because they are difficult to reach.
A person with long skinny fingers is the ideal type of person who can manage to reach up into those things and check for buffing dirt on a new instrument or sludge on an old instrument. Rotor casings are much easier to check in this way, but the rotors - of course - have to be removed, which is trouble.

It is theoretically possible that a different formulation of oil might have more cleaning properties - which might bust some of the buffing dirt or sludge loose from the areas described above, which could explain why oil mixing could cause valves to stick… or could cause blah-blah color of liquid to come out of an instrument.

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:52 am Oh, and I'm using X and Y for now because there's a story that is still unfolding for both, so I don't want to spoil that :-)

Welcome to the Mack Brass Artiste family!!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:28 pm

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:52 am Oh, and I'm using X and Y for now because there's a story that is still unfolding for both, so I don't want to spoil that :-)

Welcome to the Mack Brass Artiste family!!

thaaat's a negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full....

Glad to hear that Horn Y (careful with the spelling, there! ) has arrived safely! Sounds like it made a pretty quick trip, honestly. Let us know how it is, once you've had a chance to figure that out for yourself!

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:45 pm

Three Valves wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:28 pm

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:52 am Oh, and I'm using X and Y for now because there's a story that is still unfolding for both, so I don't want to spoil that :-)

Welcome to the Mack Brass Artiste family!!

thaaat's a negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full....

Hmm... my guess would be Eastman and/or Packer, but we will (im)patiently wait for the reveal.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:58 pm Glad to hear that Horn Y (careful with the spelling, there! )

Methinks this a Freudian slip, no? What say ye, Rob?

^^^

Horn E

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:12 am I always tend to suspect something in the instrument, when people (in my view) misdiagnose the cause of their problems as “oil mixing”.

new: buffing dirt or solder acid

It is theoretically possible that a different formulation of oil might have more cleaning properties - which might bust some of the buffing dirt or sludge loose from the areas described above, which could explain why oil mixing could cause valves to stick… or could cause blah-blah color of liquid to come out of an instrument.

So every day I've been pulling valves, wiping down and oiling. And every day, I see a grey film on the rag / paper towels. This is after 1-2 hours of intermittent playing. Anything I empty looks clear enough to me so I don't a big problem at this point, but it's interesting to consider how much buffing dirt is actually inside the horn (and based on how much was down the throat of the bell when I wiped it down with Windex, I suspect this will be the case for a while, but it's worth monitoring.

^^^^
Or a sonic clean.

I have no idea why this is not SOP for all makers before shipping.

As the inside of a brass instrument patinates - over the first year or two - it's ALSO important to drench it will (hopefully: CHEAP) oil, as the shiny interior is turning brown...That "brown" does NOT form smooth (as would paint) but forms ROUGH (sort-of like crystals). DRENCHING the interior of the valveset with oil (during this period assists valve casings and contacting slide surfaces oxidation to (nicely) scuff against other moving parts and to be worn down to SMOOTH oxidation, rather than rough...

...and this is WITHOUT ANY buffing dirt, lime, sludge, or ANYTHING - other than (again: naturally rough-surfaces-forming) oxidation.

In my life, I've bought these instruments "new":

--A Cerveny-made Sanders 1314 (standard 4/4 Bb rotary tuba) from Custom Music in about 1984. Instrument was shipped by air from Detroit packed in straw in a wooden crate--very old school. There was a solder gap where one of the second-valve tubes went into the valve knuckle, which I unashamedly filled by drawing in epoxy using the vacuum of pulling the slide. Laugh if you want--that worked and I'll bet is still working on that instrument. The slides were crunchy but met expectations at the price point. The linkages were crap--grossly undersized plastic ball joints held to other with 2-56 threaded rod. I replaced those with Du-Bro ball links on 4-40 rod encased in 1/8" brass tubing, which are probably still working find wherever that instrument is now. The fourth valve was sticky and I had to remove it several times to get all of whatever was still stuck to it off of it.

--An early Yamaha YFB-621. The slides were okay, but the valves would only work with Ali-Syn oil until my repair guy and I lapped them just a bit. I think the Yamaha Monel can be pickier than the so-called stainless steel used these days, and it certainly has seemed picker than nickel-plated brass. By "okay", I mean that the slides didn't fall off or require two hands to remove. And that's all I'm saying. This was a demo and had already been "broken in" through a season's worth of show booths. I also had to ventilate the valves, which made removing water from the 283 places where it collected a lot easier. I did that myself using a method that I'm almost embarrassed to admit to now in my old age: I used a Dremel cuttoff wheel to make a slot running lengthwise in the piston, just deeply enough to make an opening into the cavity. You laugh but it works perfectly.

--A VMI-made Vespro in the early 90's. My repair tech of the time and I realigned the slide tubes, and I ended up replacing linkages on that instrument as well. Everything else was fine. But this was also a demo model and as such had already endured quite a bit of playing in show booths.

--My Eastman EBB-534. I have to say that this instrument has been prepped the best of any of these. The slides are excellent--accurately aligned and fitted well. They are fast without being loose. All but the second valve is ventilated from the factory. All of the slides pull easily, which is good because I have to pull all 87 of them to get the water out of that horn. In particular, the first and third upper slides are lapped and just about perfect. The valves have needed a bit of break-in but I oil them frequently. The instrument needed a good cleaning--it still had grease and buffing schmutz here and there instead it.

So, I've never had one that was prepped perfectly, but they were either cheapies or demonstrators. Most of my acquisitions have been well-used and that presents a whole different range of potential issues.

Rick "who found a baby bottle in an old Besson on one occasion" Denney

I may not be funny, or athletic, or good-looking, or smart, or talented...

bloke "...I forgot where I was going with this...??"

My Eastman 836 really needed nothing. Valves vented and slides aligned and perfect. No black stuff on valves. Hard case I never use included.