Page 1 of 1
time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:10 am
by bloke
Regardless of the size of a 1960’s manufacturer’s facilities, name a 1960’s-made (by TODAY’s tuba size standards) 5/4-size C tuba that – one to the next – CONSISTENTLY offered excellent intonation characteristics (not epic/four-inch-range #1 slide pulling, and no #3 nor main slide manipulation).
bloke “I’m coming up with nothing.”
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:43 am
by Doc
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 8:48 am
by bort2.0
How many 5/4 sized CC tubas we're even made at that time, which had high enough production runs to even evaluate "consistency"?
A few Rudy's, maybe?
A couple of Conn Don/Non-atelli maybe?
Can't think of much else...
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 9:19 am
by Doc
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:48 am
How many 5/4 sized CC tubas we're even made at that time, which had high enough production runs to even evaluate "consistency"?
A few Rudy's, maybe?
A couple of Conn Don/Non-atelli maybe?
Can't think of much else...
I was thinking the same thing. In that regard, "5/4 CC" is late to the "widely-available" party. If you wanted a big tuba, BBb would be easier to find/order.
Was Cerveny making big CC tubas back then?
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 9:50 am
by bort2.0
Doc wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:19 am
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:48 am
How many 5/4 sized CC tubas we're even made at that time, which had high enough production runs to even evaluate "consistency"?
A few Rudy's, maybe?
A couple of Conn Don/Non-atelli maybe?
Can't think of much else...
I was thinking the same thing. In that regard, "5/4 CC" is late to the "widely-available" party. If you wanted a big tuba, BBb would be easier to find/order.
Was Cerveny making big CC tubas back then?
I think the older brands like Cerveny and Alexander have always made CC tubas. Now I can't remember... but wasn't there some European country where CC tubas were actually preferred, even back in the day?
So yeah, maybe some big Cerveny CC tubas, perhaps a few Alex 164 CC's?
For European companies... I'm doubting there were any large-enough Miraphones at the time, and same with B&S, I don't know what their CC product line was at that point. Meinl Weston...? Gronitz? Hirsbrunner? A few B&M Marzans? What was Kurath/Willson up to in the 1960s?
For American companies, what was around in the 1960s? Stretching my memory... but I think Conn was mostly making smaller CC tubas like the 2J and 3J. King... did they ever regularly produce a CC? Holton... a couple of 6/4 factory CC's, but not much. Martin -- if still around -- again, just a few CC in their history. Olds/Reynolds didn't make anything CC iirc.
Asian companies, I just have no idea. Yamaha was around, but I don't know when they started making tubas. But still, were any in CC, and in what quantity if so?
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:05 am
by jtm
Was Miraphone making a CC bigger than the 188 when that model came out in the late 70s?
Does this time machine have some old catalogs?
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:08 am
by bloke
The INTONATION requirement - in the first post (if not ignored) - is going to be THE single most challenging hurdle.
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:17 am
by Doc
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:50 am
Doc wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:19 am
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:48 am
How many 5/4 sized CC tubas we're even made at that time, which had high enough production runs to even evaluate "consistency"?
A few Rudy's, maybe?
A couple of Conn Don/Non-atelli maybe?
Can't think of much else...
I was thinking the same thing. In that regard, "5/4 CC" is late to the "widely-available" party. If you wanted a big tuba, BBb would be easier to find/order.
Was Cerveny making big CC tubas back then?
I think the older brands like Cerveny and Alexander have always made CC tubas. Now I can't remember... but wasn't there some European country where CC tubas were actually preferred, even back in the day?
So yeah, maybe some big Cerveny CC tubas, perhaps a few Alex 164 CC's?
For European companies... I'm doubting there were any large-enough Miraphones at the time, and same with B&S, I don't know what their CC product line was at that point. Meinl Weston...? Gronitz? Hirsbrunner? A few B&M Marzans? What was Kurath/Willson up to in the 1960s?
For American companies, what was around in the 1960s? Stretching my memory... but I think Conn was mostly making smaller CC tubas like the 2J and 3J. King... did they ever regularly produce a CC? Holton... a couple of 6/4 factory CC's, but not much. Martin -- if still around -- again, just a few CC in their history. Olds/Reynolds didn't make anything CC iirc.
Asian companies, I just have no idea. Yamaha was around, but I don't know when they started making tubas. But still, were any in CC, and in what quantity if so?
If memory serves, Bohland & Fuchs made some CC tubas before WWII, but I don't know how common they really were. Of course, that is before the time frame Joe asked about.
jtm wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:05 am
Was Miraphone making a CC bigger than the 188 when that model came out in the late 70s?
Does this time machine have some old catalogs?
I'm not sure when the 190 was first produced in CC, although they were never made in great numbers, but even so...
bloke wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:08 am
The
INTONATION requirement - in the first post (if not ignored) - is going to be THE single most challenging hurdle.
...this would exclude them, as it would almost every other large CC tubas (few as they might be) made during that era. And the same applies to many 4/4 CC tubas made during that time also.
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:44 am
by jtm
A fellow in one of my bands plays a largish European rotary C tuba (big enough to not fit in the trunk of an Accord, where I'm pretty sure a 188 would fit). If the C in the staff is in tune, then the C below the staff is so flat that he plays C with 1-4. Bb with 1 should be similarly flat, but I didn't ask which fingering he likes for that. Seems like a very confusing way to work.
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:47 am
by bort2.0
bloke wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:08 am
The INTONATION requirement - in the first post (if not ignored) - is going to be THE single most challenging hurdle.
Then help me out, what 5/4 sized CC tuba was built in the 1960s in large enough numbers so as to compare them and draw conclusions about consistency?
Re: time travel mind games
Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 11:38 am
by bloke
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:47 am
bloke wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:08 am
The INTONATION requirement - in the first post (if not ignored) - is going to be THE single most challenging hurdle.
Then help me out, what 5/4 sized CC tuba was built in the 1960s in large enough numbers so as to compare them and draw conclusions about consistency?
3 out of 3 would be consistent.
1 out of 2 would be inconsistent.
A 35c-low open G is a non-starter.
A 20c-low 2-3 E-flat (yet: with the #3 slide pushed in all the way) is a non-starter.
I believe the conclusion (to which many will soon be drawn towards) is that quite large easily-playable C tubas (though still - in my observation - are not common - ie. borderline anomalies) are a quite recent set of inventions.
