Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
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Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
Anybody out there in their 70's playing a 186 CC or Mack Bras 410? I am considering it.
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Mary Ann
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Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
I've thought about it too -- there was a recent post that the 410 is heavier than the 186. I think there is still a highly-recommended "real" 186 for sale on this board. If you can lift it for two hours, you might get yourself a really fine tuba.
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
I owned a 410. IMHO, it is one of the best bargains in the world of tubas. The instrument is a pretty good copy of the 186 and plays about as well, even better according to some. New 410's are around $2000. I am 86, by the way.
Ace
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
I agree with Ace. I bought one for my son when he was age 11 and weighed 65 lbs. It took him through high school. He performed on it in the Kennedy Center, the Kimmel Center, and Carnegie Hall. A helluva deal.
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the elephant
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Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
I agree. So far as "deals" go, that tuba can't be beaten. There are better Asian tubas, but not hugely better, and the price of one from Tom is still very low. I think his 410s start at $2500 now. The gold brass bell is worth the money, IMHO.
The things that need upgrading are expensive, but not really needed. The only thing I dislike is how small the bearing surfaces of the valves are. Supposedly Tom's 410s now feature nickel silver platens and levers, but you would need to ask him directly. (In the past these parts were nickel-plated yellow brass.) The copies of the German-made "Minibal" links are not very good, and real ones will set you back a ton of cash. But I have only seen them break a few times. Mostly they just get "clicky" over time. If you can replace those links you would probably love this tuba. If my 186 was stolen or destroyed I would pick up one of these for cheap until I could replace the German tuba. I would likely buy one untested if it was from 2015 or later if I was really in a bind. I liked mine that much. My colleagues liked it too, which surprised me.
I have been approached a few times recently about installing genuine Miraphone 186 valves to one of these. Honestly, it would not be worth it at all. That would cost as much as the whole horn, and a lot of stuff would have to be messed around with to get parts to fit together, as the Chinese horn uses standard mm/half-mm tubing whereas Miraphone uses its own oddball ID/OD sizes — all 20 ports on the five Miraphone valves would have to be slightly expanded to make things fit.
Despite it looking like you could just pull the valves and replace them as a block, this is not really practicable. If you can get the valves at Miraphone's current price, with all the needed parts, you are looking at over $1,200 for the parts and shipping from Germany. The labor would be more than that. As I said, it is better to buy a 410 and then admit what you have and not try to make it into what it isn't. The price is excellent. The tuba is a very good musical instrument with excellent intonation and a nice sound. It is a bargain, in truth, and I almost never say that about any instrument, new or used. It is a very faithful copy of the current production 186-5U CC but with a slightly different bell flare shape, so it has a more generic (but warmer) tone. I really did like mine.
Don't get me wrong: If I was in a bind and could get a real 186-5U CC for $2500 — even a beater, so long as the scale was good — I would buy it first. But again, if I were in a bad spot and needed a work horn *right now* and no $2500 186 magically appeared for sale I would call Tom and get one of his 410s sent to me ASAP.
The things that need upgrading are expensive, but not really needed. The only thing I dislike is how small the bearing surfaces of the valves are. Supposedly Tom's 410s now feature nickel silver platens and levers, but you would need to ask him directly. (In the past these parts were nickel-plated yellow brass.) The copies of the German-made "Minibal" links are not very good, and real ones will set you back a ton of cash. But I have only seen them break a few times. Mostly they just get "clicky" over time. If you can replace those links you would probably love this tuba. If my 186 was stolen or destroyed I would pick up one of these for cheap until I could replace the German tuba. I would likely buy one untested if it was from 2015 or later if I was really in a bind. I liked mine that much. My colleagues liked it too, which surprised me.
I have been approached a few times recently about installing genuine Miraphone 186 valves to one of these. Honestly, it would not be worth it at all. That would cost as much as the whole horn, and a lot of stuff would have to be messed around with to get parts to fit together, as the Chinese horn uses standard mm/half-mm tubing whereas Miraphone uses its own oddball ID/OD sizes — all 20 ports on the five Miraphone valves would have to be slightly expanded to make things fit.
Despite it looking like you could just pull the valves and replace them as a block, this is not really practicable. If you can get the valves at Miraphone's current price, with all the needed parts, you are looking at over $1,200 for the parts and shipping from Germany. The labor would be more than that. As I said, it is better to buy a 410 and then admit what you have and not try to make it into what it isn't. The price is excellent. The tuba is a very good musical instrument with excellent intonation and a nice sound. It is a bargain, in truth, and I almost never say that about any instrument, new or used. It is a very faithful copy of the current production 186-5U CC but with a slightly different bell flare shape, so it has a more generic (but warmer) tone. I really did like mine.
Don't get me wrong: If I was in a bind and could get a real 186-5U CC for $2500 — even a beater, so long as the scale was good — I would buy it first. But again, if I were in a bad spot and needed a work horn *right now* and no $2500 186 magically appeared for sale I would call Tom and get one of his 410s sent to me ASAP.
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
I think Wade covered the playing aspects of the horn well. Yes, the valves are not completely noiseless...mine would be a bit better if I had gotten the new bumpers in slightly better. Wade reworked the slides on his, which I now own, and they are pretty good now, particularly the 1st, which you would push and pull for adjustments, and the MTS. You'd have to check the slide alignment on whichever particular one you get.
As far as the weight of the horn, I covered that in my post to the other thread by this name. On two different fairly accurate scales, I get 21.2 to 21.4 lbs. I don't take the tuba out a lot, but the hard case with wheels should make transporting it not much of a problem. In my practice room at home the horn sits with the bell on the floor next to my chair and I just reach over and pivot it up onto my lap. I can balance it there if I have to reach for a different mouthpiece, book of music, valve oil or for my tuner. The horn could sit a little higher and I might end up using some kind of pillow to get it exactly where I want it. As it is either I put my feet up on my toes and rest my heels on the chair legs or just lean forward and tilt the horn forward. So the horn isn't that heavy, just a little unwieldy, like any large tuba, and I can deal with that.
I'm not one of those people who think an old guy should just give up and downsize to a 3/4 tuba. A 21 lb tuba is not a monster. If you can't lift it you probably need to work on your core strength and arms and shoulders, rather than giving up and switching to F tuba or euphonium. A study several years ago showed that even nursing home patients in wheelchairs benefited from weight training, so I guess old guys with tubas can, too. I don't mean to be judgmental...if you have disabilities and are unable to manage a tuba's weight, by all means downsize. It's just that I think we too often accept the consquences of "aging" when really we are just spending too much time on the couch. We are fortunate to have a lot of research on strength training on which to draw. Take a look at books by Clarence Bass...
royjohn, 75 y/o tuba newbie
As far as the weight of the horn, I covered that in my post to the other thread by this name. On two different fairly accurate scales, I get 21.2 to 21.4 lbs. I don't take the tuba out a lot, but the hard case with wheels should make transporting it not much of a problem. In my practice room at home the horn sits with the bell on the floor next to my chair and I just reach over and pivot it up onto my lap. I can balance it there if I have to reach for a different mouthpiece, book of music, valve oil or for my tuner. The horn could sit a little higher and I might end up using some kind of pillow to get it exactly where I want it. As it is either I put my feet up on my toes and rest my heels on the chair legs or just lean forward and tilt the horn forward. So the horn isn't that heavy, just a little unwieldy, like any large tuba, and I can deal with that.
I'm not one of those people who think an old guy should just give up and downsize to a 3/4 tuba. A 21 lb tuba is not a monster. If you can't lift it you probably need to work on your core strength and arms and shoulders, rather than giving up and switching to F tuba or euphonium. A study several years ago showed that even nursing home patients in wheelchairs benefited from weight training, so I guess old guys with tubas can, too. I don't mean to be judgmental...if you have disabilities and are unable to manage a tuba's weight, by all means downsize. It's just that I think we too often accept the consquences of "aging" when really we are just spending too much time on the couch. We are fortunate to have a lot of research on strength training on which to draw. Take a look at books by Clarence Bass...
royjohn, 75 y/o tuba newbie
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- the elephant (Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:42 pm)
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
Hey Royjohn:
Your post was very helpful and practical. Thanks for that. I have recently joined a health club with the goal of increasing strength and flexibility. I sold a 22 lbs BBb tuba that I had been playing in a community band. My major instrument is euphonium and I do enjoy playing tuba in quintet, small orchestra and band. When I was teaching I loved playing every instrument. Have you played your 410 in quintet ? I played a YCB-621 in my most recent quintet. Thanks again.
Your post was very helpful and practical. Thanks for that. I have recently joined a health club with the goal of increasing strength and flexibility. I sold a 22 lbs BBb tuba that I had been playing in a community band. My major instrument is euphonium and I do enjoy playing tuba in quintet, small orchestra and band. When I was teaching I loved playing every instrument. Have you played your 410 in quintet ? I played a YCB-621 in my most recent quintet. Thanks again.
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
Hi eupho,
Thanks for the kind words. I am by no means in great shape, but, as I detailed, I don't find the 410 all that difficult to maneuver up onto my lap from by my left side. It is on my list of things to do to get a bit stronger, too. If it is merely hauling a 410 around in its hard case and playing it seated, I don't see why it would be impossible for someone in their 70's or even 80's...as I say, if you can't, you probably need to work on upper body strength. A recent NYT article suggests that longevity is a matter of diet and exercise...
royjohn, 75 y/o tuba newbie
Thanks for the kind words. I am by no means in great shape, but, as I detailed, I don't find the 410 all that difficult to maneuver up onto my lap from by my left side. It is on my list of things to do to get a bit stronger, too. If it is merely hauling a 410 around in its hard case and playing it seated, I don't see why it would be impossible for someone in their 70's or even 80's...as I say, if you can't, you probably need to work on upper body strength. A recent NYT article suggests that longevity is a matter of diet and exercise...
royjohn, 75 y/o tuba newbie
Re: Mack Brass 410 CC tuba weight?
Mr. Eupho, I noticed that you first inquired about this tuba about 9 years ago on the old forum and have asked about it periodically. Is there any other info you need?