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I just bought an Older B&S Rotary F tuba, it doesn’t say with model it is, but it has a minor third 5th valve slide. What would be the best way to get a flat whole step one for it? Order a new one? Have one made? Convert the old one?

I’d prefer to keep the original as it is but I’m willing to do what’s needed if it comes down to it. The outer slides look identical to any other B&S rotary F tuba, but I’m not sure if the bore ever changed on those.

Sell the tuba for $8000 more than it's worth to one of those who oooh and ahhh over 5th valve circuits tuned that way.

What model of B&S F tuba is it?

I'd pay extra for one with that valve slide. Don't knock it until you have thoroughly given it a go --- it is MUCH easier to play the low range with fewer valves down. My 184 had that and if I ever get another CC I'll have one made. I liked it that much better. Flat whole step is hooey and creates unnecessary stuffiness.

I bought a shiny used C tuba several years ago which was made shortly after reunification. It appeared (??) to be a combination of Meinl Weston 32 body parts and B&S valve section parts. I don’t believe it bore the brand name VMI, but it really looked like one of those things. It had a slide as you describe - though a C version. The problem was that Buffet had already bought the company and immediately screwed it all up, and there was no obtaining parts anymore as it has been so easy to do previously. What I did with that instrument was to cut what was there and to carefully file, match, and braze together (with silver brazing wire) two curved elbows of that assembly to make a single slide bow – whereby I converted that configuration to the more popular shorter configuration.
After some gentle filing, sanding, and polishing, it looked like a factory slide bow.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:48 pm I bought a shiny used C tuba several years ago which was made shortly after reunification. It appeared (??) to be a combination of Meinl Weston 32 body parts and B&S valve section parts. I don’t believe it bore the brand name VMI, but it really looked like one of those things. It had a slide as you describe - though a C version. The problem was that Buffet had already bought the company and immediately screwed it all up, and there was no obtaining parts anymore as it has been so easy to do previously. What I did with that instrument was to cut what was there and to carefully file, match, and braze together (with silver brazing wire) two curved elbows of that assembly to make a single slide bow – whereby I converted that configuration to the more popular shorter configuration.
After some gentle filing, sanding, and polishing, it looked like a factory slide bow.

I had one of those -- the 4 valve version. Mine was branded as VMI. Some others had the name Sternberg.

Solid tuba, played well. I owned this tuba when I first played a Miraphone 188... and was immediately in love with the 188. Would be fun to try it again and see what I think of it now.

I’m not sure of the model. It doesn’t say on the bell, but it does have a removable leadpipe with an extra one if that says anything. Also it has a ball and socket type valve linkage if that helps tell its age and possible model at all. I’ll try to get pictures posted.

I would like to keep the original slide as it does play very in the low range with it, plus I started on a Miraphone 188 with this style of fifth valve, but I’d like to have a whole step slide just as an option and to bring it up to “modern standards” or basically “what everyone prefers”.

If you can find a 19 mm tuning slide bow with the same distance between the legs, and some 19 mm bore German-made slide tubing (Meinlschmidt has some that will fit if you can’t get any from Buffet), someone can make what you want.

Pakins51 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:06 pm I’m not sure of the model. It doesn’t say on the bell, but it does have a removable leadpipe with an extra one if that says anything. Also it has a ball and socket type valve linkage if that helps tell its age and possible model at all. I’ll try to get pictures posted.

I would like to keep the original slide as it does play very in the low range with it, plus I started on a Miraphone 188 with this style of fifth valve, but I’d like to have a whole step slide just as an option and to bring it up to “modern standards” or basically “what everyone prefers”.

99.7% sure that’s a PT-10. The bore of the 5th valve slide should be right at .75 inches. You should be able to confirm that with a ruler or a tape measure. The 2 removable lead pipes and 2 swappable fifth valve slides were a custom music company thing iirc.

More on the 2+3: I don't see how anybody plays that flat whole step anything in tune. It is never, ever the right length of tubing and everybody ends up slide pulling. Was not necessary on my CC with its 2+3, so I just don't get why the love affair with something that inherently doesn't work. I had it on my F and the NStar, and there never was a combo in the lowest octave that actually worked, and both stuffy as hell down there. If I still had the NStar, by now I would have had a 2+3 for it.

To the contrary, both slide lengths work for most of the really low pitches – within fairly reasonably close tuning, except both of them leave one of the really low chromatic pitches really badly out of tune.
With the adjusted whole tone length, that one badly out of tune pitch is the whole step above the open fundamental, and - with the longer 5th circuit length - it’s another pitch.
Neither the four valve compensating system nor the five valve compensate-somewhat systems are adequate for tuning every second partial pitch.

Assuming an instrument that doesn’t feature any epic built-in tuning quirks (ie. offers a remarkably in tune open bugle), the 4+2 “semi-compensating“ system - with a thumb trigger for the #1 slide and another thumb trigger for the fifth slide is a system that can offer spot-on tuning (with very little favoring, assuming a very consistent player) for just about everything.

Does this involve the use of eight digits?
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Yes it does, and – just as a reminder – saxophones require the use of nine, and still have to be favored in tune.
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… putting a ninth digit to use on such an instrument?
A #2 slide trigger for the left hand ring finger might be nice (depending on the instrument).
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I’ve put some thought into this (a few decades of putting stuff together for my own use), but the instruments I have personally chosen for myself work well enough for me without going to this ultimate system, but my F tuba features everything other than the #1 thumb trigger, which I have not installed - due to the instrument being so extremely flexible. (I believe some might refer to this characteristic as “barn-door-wide slots”.)