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Hello together!
I was in Czech Republic yesterday. Look what i found! A valved Ophicleide in F from around 1830! Made by ANT. FER. MICHALEK IN PRAG. The owner is a museum in Czech Republic.

Was für eine wundervolle Entdeckung, mein Herr!

This is QUITE a discovery. My own historical research says that the first valved brass instruments appeared in 1829, although not much is known about the very first ones. The first valved tuba, according to conventional wisdom, was built in 1835. This “valved ophicleide” predates that instrument by 5 years! I would submit that this instrument is not an ophicleide at all, but the elusive “tuba in ophicleide shape”. By definition, an ophicleide must have keys rather than valves, or it’s not an ophicleide. The word “ophicleide” literally translates to “keyed bugle”. Fascinating valve action on this one, lovely tone!

That was incredible. Difficult to play?

LeMark wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:42 pm That was incredible. Difficult to play?

No, not so much. But the valves was VERY leaking...
That makes it not easier

Great find to have an instrument like this in playable condition!

I would submit that this instrument is not an ophicleide at all, but the elusive “tuba in ophicleide shape”. By definition, an ophicleide must have keys rather than valves, or it’s not an ophicleide.

The "Tuba" as we know it was invented in 1835. And of course in this years it took some time to get known. The ophicleide was still known and there were some makers trying "valved ophicleides" because a-it seemed worth trying and b-there was no other name for it. And... a Model T Ford with a four-on-the-floor gearbox is still a T, even when it is ripped of the fun of pedal-shifting.

I don't know, I think I'm with DonO. At the time, there may have been no good name for a larger valved brass instrument, but today there are plenty of good names for that, and it's hard to see how one of them could reasonably be "ophicleide", which normally denotes a fundamentally different instrument.

I am with you both as long as it is about more recent ones like this https://takao-nakagawa.de/instrumente/v ... phikleide/. This I would name a "Tall Stack Tuba". Something like a T Model with automatic gearbox, radial tires and power steering.
But this gem Daniel is featuring here is old enough (and technically near enough) to the original keyed ones to be called VALVED Ophicleide. It is on the opposite side to the first Saxophones,which also had the bassoon-style body and just were an ophicleide with a bass clarinet mouthpiece (made by A. Sax in frustration over his unsuccesful work on the bass clarinet...).
The shape of this Michalek instrument was later repeated from the Sudrophone, but with piston valves.

I don’t wish to belabor the obvious, but the term “ophicleide” was coined from the Greek words “ophis” (serpent) and “kleis” (key). Thus, a “keyed serpent”, literally. The definition is included in the word itself. Is a keyed serpent without keys a keyed serpent anymore? But the point being made that the instrument in question is more closely related to the ophicleide in age and usage is well taken. What we have here is a “missing link” of sorts, a bridge between the ophicleide and the tuba. I wonder if this is the only extant example, or have others survived? And as for the leaky valves, I wonder if this is a design flaw, or just because of wear and tear? It seems like an odd valve design, with some part of the valve extending past the casing when depressed. They look more like pistons to my eye, even though operated by rotor-like keys. In any case, regardless of what you call it, it is a fascinating relic!

There are some more in this style in different European museums, but most of them not in playable condition. I am not sure about the year of the here shown instrument, all other examples are dated 1835-1845. In 1835 (same year as the 5 Berlin valve Moritz tuba) in Vienna Riedl built an "Ophikleide mit Maschin" (=Ophicleide with valveblock!) with his newly invented "Riedl-Radlmaschin" (=now widely known as rotary valves).
As long as they kept the bodyshape the makers called them valved ophicleides, the term tuba took over with the use of more modern shape from 1840 on.
It is just like the term "horseless carriage"...

To add a bit more the the pedantry here…

I’d submit that the term “key” is abused as well. Pianos have keys and woodwinds have keys. Both are completely different in function. I’ve also had several directors refer to valves on a brass instrument as a “key”.

In the course of all above a key is simply the interface between the finger and some mechanical action.

So even if the instrument were a “keyed snake”, maybe the manufacturer wasn’t belaboring the difference from the “key” operating a pad closing a tone hole or a “key” operating a valve?

matt g wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:08 am To add a bit more the the pedantry here…

I’d submit that the term “key” is abused as well. Pianos have keys and woodwinds have keys. Both are completely different in function. I’ve also had several directors refer to valves on a brass instrument as a “key”.

In the course of all above a key is simply the interface between the finger and some mechanical action.

So even if the instrument were a “keyed snake”, maybe the manufacturer wasn’t belaboring the difference from the “key” operating a pad closing a tone hole or a “key” operating a valve?

Yes, this! I hadn’t considered the possibility that these early valves were looked at as being improved “keys”, with valves being so new and all. Still, I would say a transitional instrument, and a link between the end of the serpent-type instruments and what we think of as a tuba. So cool that it’s playable, and the OP was actually allowed to play it! In my youth I had the opportunity to examine the brass instrument collection at the Smithsonian as part of a research project. I was taken to the back room where the vast majority of the collection was stored. The curator at the time, Robert Sheldon, couldn’t have been more cordial. I was permitted to take as much time as I wanted, to look and to take photographs. I did ask about trying to play some of them. He replied “Can you do that without touching them?”. So there as no touching, no playing. That a museum would permit a visitor to touch and even play a rare item like that astounds me.

The meaning of "keyed serpent" is clear and specific about the kind of keys in question. Keyed bugles, the ophicleide's little brother, were in common use in the first half of the 19th century.

So the key is a connecting element between ophicleide and tuba. Both my old tuba case and the ophicleide box were delivered with two keys...
But now they travel keyless in well padded gigbags

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:37 am Both my old tuba case and the ophicleide box were delivered with two keys...

Were the keys a fifth apart, or was one in the subdominant?