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This thread is NOT about how well someone plays or how musically someone plays.
Rather, this thread is about all players at all levels of prowess, so I would prefer that it not get sidetracked, and I would enjoy reading responses more when they relate only to what I’m talking about.

LEVELS OF PERFORMANCE (written down sheet music)
- sight reading
- reading something that has been read before
- reading something that is quite familiar
- playing written music for memory
- beyond memorization, completely knowing a piece of music
=================
How often, really, do any of us perform written down sheet music at the fifth level?

I’ve seen a few videos of European symphony orchestras which stood up and performed entire symphonies with no sheet music, and they performed beyond memorization. It was pretty inspiring…

… and small ensembles – sitting or standing, whatever - as well. For the instruments that we play, Empire and Canadian brass would fall into this category.

I’m not really sure what Bloke’s looking for here but I’ll add something.

I play for fun, no one pays me to play and that’s unlikely to change. My skill level has improved over the years but it’s fluctuates depending on loads of longer and short term factors.

Learning music so I can play without the written stuff in front of me isn’t going to happen and I’m comfortable with that. Going to the next level up would be both rather hard work and take a whole load of time that I could more usefully use on other stuff; it would not be fun and I play for fun. If I were a professional musician then I wouldn’t want to spend time committing something to memory, I’d want to use that time earning money and supporting skills that enabled me to sight read well and play a really wide variety of music. YMMV.

The Brass Band that I play in has over 1000 sets of music and we have about 30 out in our playing pads at any one time. At recent rehearsals we’ve been revisiting some stuff that we haven’t played since before the pandemic, it felt a bit like sight reading but we played better than that. We all had fun playing and as a Band we’ll play the pieces increasing well as we polish our own individual parts and pull together as a musical team.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:02 pm I would prefer that it not get sidetracked, and I would enjoy reading responses more when they relate only to what I’m talking about.

Okay, on topic...I don’t think I’ve ever got to level 5. Level 4 happened with high school marching band and a season of drum corps.

There, I stayed on topic!

I’m just saying that there is actually level beyond memorization of a piece of music, and the only way I can think of to describe it is “knowing“ that piece of music… I think - with memorization - a piece can be forgotten, but at the next level it cannot. Performing it can become rusty, but not the understanding how to perform it and nor – at that level – is it ever necessary to reference the sheet music again.

I agree and can see/imagine that. I would think that players on the audition circuit have the main excepts memorized and likely have many of them at a level 5 (how they fit in with the trombones, what is going on around them, flavoring the excerpt this way or that way, etc)

Obviously that isn’t the same as having a whole piece at a 5 though.

I rarely play memorized. I've always struggled with it, and it causes an extra level of stress to performances.* I've watched countless string and piano players practice their memory slips and plan where they are going to go if they have a hiccup. I don't see the need to add that stress. Once I *know* a piece, I'll play it just as well off the page as I will from memory (the little bit I may have memorized).


*Polkas and other oom-pah gigs excluded

There was one point I had played Lebedevs concerto in one movement so many times that I had stopped caring so much about the fingerings, pitches and rhythms and focused more on the emotion I was trying to communicate through that piece of music.

After performing it for a master class there was a moment of silence and the tuba ‘fessor spoke up and said.

“Well at least I won’t have to work on musicality with you”

Very validating compliment if not the best I had ever gotten.

Edit: not memorized

So many seem to have abandoned memorization (of just about anything) - as memorization leads to "knowing".

I was asked to play a solo at a (rare as heck for me, as I hadn't played in a brass CHOIR since I was probably 20 years old) brass choir concert - a couple of years ago.

I discovered that there was a brass choir arrangement (piccolo trumpet parts, etc.) of the RVW, so I suggested the second movement.

We rehearsed it (and every other piece) on the program only ONCE (a two-hour rehearsal - with a short pee break - for two back-to-back one-hour shows).

The stage manager put a stand (and no chair) at the front of the stage at the rehearsal, so I sat on the edge of the stage and (as I know the piece) began playing it. They hustled up a chair and took the stand away, but my understanding has always been that - if asked to play a solo with any sort of ensemble - the expectation is to play that solo without sheet music.

oh yeah... I suppose it's a good idea to actually "know" a piece well enough to know the stuff that's in-between when one plays, and to be able to hear when to come back in after a few beats/measures rest.

The Bach Brandenburg thing (that we're adding to our "nursing home" repertoire for this next weekend - the "famous" one with the prominent high trumpet - where Wade helped me out with the parts missing from my set), I'm not going to memorize/learn the entire movement, but I do plan to memorize/learn a couple of segments which are each ("It's yo' time, boy!") three or four solid staves of 16th notes...I just don't want to be "reading" all that mess at a performance.

If I had to choose between the ability to read challenging music the first time to the full level of my playing ability, or memorizing stuff easily, I’d choose the former in a heartbeat. Truth is I can’t do either.

Music I memorized decades ago has escaped my memory since then and I still need the music, even though it’s part of my routine practice time. I’ve done it in the past—the Tubameisters played whole sets from memory—but I’d need the music if I played it again, at least for a while.

Being able to read hard stuff down musically without mistakes? That sounds like a money-making skill to me.

I guess I’d rather be able to process than store.

Rick “can focus better on what’s not notated when not worrying about remembering what is notated” Denney

Can you all tell the difference when listening to music which level the performer is performing at?

(Place holder for putting a more thoughtful response in this thread... eventually. Definitely a provocative thread.)

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:52 pm If I had to choose between the ability to read challenging music the first time to the full level of my playing ability, or memorizing stuff easily, I’d choose the former in a heartbeat. Truth is I can’t do either.

Music I memorized decades ago has escaped my memory since then and I still need the music, even though it’s part of my routine practice time. I’ve done it in the past—the Tubameisters played whole sets from memory—but I’d need the music if I played it again, at least for a while.

Being able to read hard stuff down musically without mistakes? That sounds like a money-making skill to me.

I guess I’d rather be able to process than store.

Rick “can focus better on what’s not notated when not worrying about remembering what is notated” Denney

Brains probably work in different ways (obviously, as people are so very different).
I rarely misspell words when I type.
FAR more often, I type the wrong (correctly spelled) WORD...
...which tells me that I type in sentences/thoughts (if not paragraphs) rather than in words.

Also...
that with which are more familiar: probably larger segments of thought-streams
that with which was are less familiar: probably smaller segments of thought-streams

Could you imagine these guys with music stands...??

Well, Keith Emerson wasn’t playing a piece of music that would only be played at one concert out of 16 that season. He was playing his own composition at 100 concerts that year.

I have witnessed Jerry Garcia forgetting the words to a Grateful Dead song that he must have performed hundreds of times. It is possible in that case that drugs were involved :)

But Jon Anderson tells the story of trying to browbeat Rick Wakeman into memorizing a section of Topographic Oceans, Wakeman’s version was that he didn’t like or identify with the music (he left the group soon after, ending just the first of five periods when he drove the keyboards for Yes). Clearly, though, being able to compose and perform music like that was an entry filter. Yes went through a few musicians before attaining the virtuosic standard of their 1973 lineup, and ELP was formed of musicians who had already proved themselves with these skills.

But I’ve been deeply moved as a listener by orchestras reading from music, though I’m sure they all knew the music well and the stand was there just for reassurance.

I suspect that musicians who are good at improvisation memorize more easily than those who aren’t. That’s true for me when it’s words and not music, but with words I simply have vastly more practice.

Rick “who knows superb musicians who can’t string together to cogent sentences despite also having more practice with words” Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:26 pm
Brains probably work in different ways (obviously, as people are so very different).

This is what it comes down to, I think. I've played rock concerts on bass without music or charts. I've done gigs on bass with charts. I've played oom-pah gigs on tuba with and without charts. I don't know that I've ever attempted a "classical" tuba performance without music.

FOR ME, the process of memorization and accompanying stress would detract from my process of practice and performance. I could sing you the entire Vaughan Williams from memory, probably without accompaniment. My ability to memorize sounds is different than memorizing a page. I don't have perfect pitch, so knowing the sounds doesn't translate into "notes" for me, and my relative pitch isn't good enough that it does either.

I also can't memorize words. My wife and I will be listening to a song, and she'll point out a lyric, and I'll have to ask her what it was even though I also just heard it. When I was younger, I could play most of Jimmy Page's solos from memory (on guitar....not bass or tuba....). I couldn't sing you a single verse of any Led Zeppelin song. They don't register with me.

But when I was in the choir for Beethoven 9, I had the entire bass part thing memorized. I don't speak German, so I wasn't memorizing words. I was memorizing phonetics, i.e., sounds. That was easy.

I guess you could pejoratively call the sheet music a crutch. But I can play more freely and more relaxed with it on the stand. So I do. It doesn't mean that I don't have a perfectly clear idea of what my performance will be. Nor does it mean that anything on the page is a surprise to me or somehow unlearned.

“can’t” is a pretty big word.

I remember when all children were required to memorize poetry – every child in every class in the school, regardless of whether they scored a 90 or a 140 on an IQ test, and regardless of which skills they seemed to show more strength or more weakness.

I also remember when every band student was required to play a solo music piece for solo and ensemble festivals, and were also required to memorize those solos. Today, most high schools seem to mostly emphasize marching band, and all of that music is memorized, isn’t it? Curiously, when we used to do marching band shows at my university, we changed most of the show every week, and actually used flip folders with lyres, and each of us used a little personally-invented code - whereby we wrote into the music what we were supposed to do with our feet.

Memorization is not knowing, but it’s close. It saddens me that most children today don’t know basic arithmetic problems (the knowing of which first requires memorization) at least up to certain numbers. The fact that they don’t makes them much easier to fool, much more gullible, and much more easily coaxed into being told “because I say so - and with an authoritative voice” what is and what isn’t.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:52 pm “can’t” is a pretty big word.

Today, most high schools seem to mostly emphasize marching band, and all of that music is memorized, isn’t it? Curiously, when we used to do marching band shows at my university, we changed most of the show every week, and actually used flip folders with lyres, and each of us used a little personally-invented code - whereby we wrote into the music what we were supposed to do with our feet.

I'm glad you brought that up. I was able to memorize our 8-12 minute field show in high school every year. But I never actually had it memorized until I combined it with the drill we performed.

And I guess "can't" is too strong. You're right. But attempting memorization has too many negative side effects and distractions to me. Maybe I should give it an honest try at my next performance, whenever that will be.

humBell wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:17 pm Can you all tell the difference when listening to music which level the performer is performing at?

(Place holder for putting a more thoughtful response in this thread... eventually. Definitely a provocative thread.)

Theater has to memorize pretty much everything. And sometimes it only starts to be fun by the time you got it all in your head.

Granted there's a gradual build up during rehearsal periods to getting off book. And while the musical portions perhaps have to keep going if you flub something, during the first runthroughs off book, you can call "line" and be fed what you're stumbling on, and nothing is upset by an over long pause...

Even if not fully memorized, having more familiarity usually allows one to be able to pay attention to other parts, and do a better job blending or following, both of which improve the over all quality of the music.

So yeah, ideally we can process everything quickly, but if some aspects the music could use more attention, it makes it kinda easier to be able to repurpose attention somewhat.

I will echo something what has rung true for me, even if i'm bad at implementing it. I think in the past, bloke has advised to read further ahead of where you're playin', and i think that is also developing a memory of sorts, even if it is exceeding short term. Like a cache.

That all said, music is music. And the less effort it takes to do any particular piece, the more pieces you get to be a part of over all.

So go! Do good music!

perfect (incredibly insightful) post, humbell.
Further, a stage actor (whether or not the world's greatest) is still performing at THEIR OWN "5" when they're finally beyond memorizing the words and absorbing themselves into the personality of their character (again: as best THEY THEMSELVES personally can manage).

re: a small portion of what you said...
Yesterday (regarding that Brandenburg movement - thankfully for the piccolo trumpet: down a step from the original, but - in ACTUAL pitch - only down a semitone), all of us agreed that - were we NOT reading at LEAST two bars ahead - any/all of us would have immediately become bogged down.

There were three passages I had planned to memorize (ie. "4"), but just too many horns to fix, and too much exhaustion.

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:18 pm stuff

argumentative

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:20 pm

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:18 pm stuff

argumentative

I feel something has been lost in translation...

hum "Zoot skipped a groove" Bell

Would this scene from a favorite movie be germane?