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Was there ever a time in tuba history when players would have a detachable bell tuba and actually use the forward-facing bell for recording and upright bell for concerts?

I get that that's a complicated question where there are indoor and outdoor concerts and the two bells cost money, so someone may only own one. But given that they are called "recording" bells, it makes me wonder.

I’m not a historian, but it is my understanding that bell front tubas (preferably or otherwise any kind of tuba) were used to play the string bass parts in symphony orchestra recordings prior to electronics being used in recordings – with everyone playing into a sort of cone shape, where the sound eventually made it to the needle cutting the original record or wax cylinder.
My understanding is that the weaker signal of the string basses really didn’t make it on to the recordings, prior to the use of electronic microphones.

(Dear voice text function,
“Onto” is not a word… At least, not yet.)

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:05 pm I’m not a historian, but it is my understanding that bell front tubas (preferably or otherwise any kind of tuba) were used to play the string bass parts in symphony orchestra recordings prior to electronics being used in recordings – with everyone playing into a sort of cone shape, where the sound eventually made it to the needle cutting the original record or wax cylinder.
My understanding is that the weaker signal of the string basses really didn’t make it on to the recordings, prior to the use of electronic microphones.

(Dear voice text function,
“Onto” is not a word… At least, not yet.)

Yeah, it kind of is!
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onto

Figures… More garbage is added as time goes on
ie. “Into is a word, so onto should be a word”, etc.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:29 pm Figures… More garbage is added as time goes on
ie. “Into is a word, so onto should be a word”, etc.

My daughter says "I amn't" instead of "I'm not." I don't have it in me to correct her, because it's technically correct.

I guess my question above is...Once someone had a bell front tuba, was there ever a culture of reserving them specifically for recordings, or was it always accepted to use them in concert as well? And were they developed FOR recording, or did the term "recording bass" become used after it was discovered that bell-front horns were better for recordings?

It's really a meaningless chicken/egg question. But sometimes I get curious about meaningless things.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:29 pm Figures… More garbage is added as time goes on
ie. “Into is a word, so onto should be a word”, etc.

Not so new.

Onto is a preposition.

It is used frequently in mathematics.
mapping elements in such a way that every element in one set is the image of at least one element in another set
a function that is one-to-one and onto

What exactly is a preposition?
A preposition is a word—and almost always a very small, very common word—that shows direction (to in "a letter to you"), location (at in "at the door"), or time (by in "by noon"), or that introduces an object (of in "a basket of apples"). Prepositions are typically followed by an object, which can be a noun (noon), a noun phrase (the door), or a pronoun (you).

What is an example of a preposition?
The most common prepositions are at, by, for, from, in, of, on, to, and with. Other common prepositions are about, above, across, after, against, along, among, around, because of, before, behind, below, beneath, beside, between, close to, down, during, except, inside, instead of, into, like, near, off, on top of, onto, out of, outside, over, past, since, through, toward, under, until, up, upon, within, without.

No offense implied here. I was just curious and reported what I found. I didn't remember what a preposition is.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:05 pm I’m not a historian, but it is my understanding that bell front tubas (preferably or otherwise any kind of tuba) were used to play the string bass parts in symphony orchestra recordings prior to electronics being used in recordings – with everyone playing into a sort of cone shape, where the sound eventually made it to the needle cutting the original record or wax cylinder.
My understanding is that the weaker signal of the string basses really didn’t make it on to the recordings, prior to the use of electronic microphones.

(Dear voice text function,
“Onto” is not a word… At least, not yet.)

Yes. This. I actually have a few pre-electronic recording 78 rpm records, and when I had a player I could tell the double bass parts were recorded with either a recording bell tuba or a sousaphone.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:29 pm Figures… More garbage is added as time goes on
ie. “Into is a word, so onto should be a word”, etc.

Well, this is wrong.

@b.williams nailed it. Quite often I’ve written into and onto to talk about bijections. Is bijection a made up word now also?

geez...one LITTLE side comment that's as important as a pimple on a pig...and everyone's donn-ing up the thread about that, already...

OK...I'm WRONG...but I just don't see it print...at least not where I've noticed. ...so how about if I see if I can get you guys even MORE offtrack (HA ! "offtrack" is a word, but ONLY refers to betting away from a racetrack).

bloke "whose daughter - with a $2XX,XXX education - uses the modern/ignorant pronunciation for forehead (traditional: "far-ed") - "four-haid", and so many people (who have lost the subtleties of speech) now pronounce the "t" in "often" (as we were corrected to not do, in the primary grades)"

HEY !!!
TALK ABOUT THE DAMN RECORDING BELL TUBAS IN EARLY RECORDINGS !!!

I suppose whether to use the uncommon (as far as my experience) "onto" is going to have to be upto the individual.

===============================================

RECORDING

I've also heard that wax cylinders were not duplicates, and that there was no technology to duplicated them.
In other words, if you have a wax cylinder of a Sousa Band recording, that wax cylinder was THE ONLY RECORDED COPY (no duplicates) of that particular performance/run-through by the Band.

Early wax cylinders could only be cut one at a time, but they would play in front of many recorders at once.

This has also allowed for some audio peeps to get wax cylinders from the same bunch and assemble something akin to a stereo recording when they’ve been lucky enough to find them somewhat representative of a left and right channel perspective.

Later wax cylinders -- whatever Edison was selling before the Blue Amberol series -- were definitely mass produced. I don't know the process, but I expect it involved wax that shrank a little so that it could be removed from the mold.

Here’s an example of what I mentioned in my prior post.

Reference link:

https://ampopmusic.com/lessons/ch-09-jo ... d-activist

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:46 pm I suppose whether to use the uncommon (as far as my experience) "onto" is going to have to be upto the individual.

"In US English, onto is more or less the standard form: it seems likely that this will eventually become the case in British English too. Remember, though, that you should never write on to as one word when it means 'onwards and towards'. For example: ✓ Let's move on to the next point."

"Stricter" It's everywhere now.

To me, it should now and forever more be "more strict"

I am a fan of recordings from the acoustic era, so I have a lot of them that feature some operatic screamer with a string orchestra and what is very obviously a tuba playing the bass part.

Using a recording bell, since that is what it was designed for.

So yes, the name is a literal one, as Joe stated up at the top.

Here is an example of a recording tuba on an acoustic recording. There is some brass in spots, so he is not "alone" in this recording, but he is most definitely playing the part normally played by a bassist in this recording.

This is Enrico Caruso singing "Cantique de Nöel" in 1916 with some very lucky tuba doofus, who, though nameless to us, has been immortalized with one of the greatest tenors of all time. I wonder who he was and what tuba he was playing.

Enrico Caruso sings "O Holy Night" in French
Recorded February 23, 1916
Victor Red Seal 88561

Just to emphasize the acoustic nature of these early "microphones", here is a drawing made by Caruso, himself. It is a self-caricature of him in the RCA recording studio, hollering into one of their "horns". It is easy to see why a bass would be difficult to pick up, and why a bell-front tuba would work so well.

the elephant wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:23 am This is Enrico Caruso singing "Cantique de Nöel" in 1916 with some very lucky tuba doofus, who, though nameless to us, has been immortalized with one of the greatest tenors of all time. I wonder who he was and what tuba he was playing.

Given that the recording is from 1916, and it is a Victor recording, it is almost certain that the "very lucky tuba doofus" was none other than the great Herman Conrad, who had played with Gilmore's Band from 1888-1892, Sousa's Band from 1893-1903, Pryor's Band off-and-on for a few years after that, but who was part of the Victor Orchestra - the resident group of musicians that supported most recordings at the Victor Talking Machine Company.

Here's one of my blog posts on Conrad at Victor: https://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2016/07 ... estra.html

And here is Conrad, with Victor, in 1918, playing a Holton:

Conrad passed away in 1920.

Discogs shows a (poor) image of the Victor disc with the catalog number. Apparently the Victor catalog cards have been archived by their current owner, Sony, although it's unclear how complete they are. It would be interesting to spend an afternoon or two perusing them.

Dave Detwiler wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:14 am Given that the recording is from 1916, and it is a Victor recording, it is almost certain that the "very lucky tuba doofus" was none other than the great Herman Conrad, who had played with Gilmore's Band from 1888-1892, Sousa's Band from 1893-1903, Pryor's Band off-and-on for a few years after that, but who was part of the Victor Orchestra - the resident group of musicians that supported most recordings at the Victor Talking Machine Company.

Here's one of my blog posts on Conrad at Victor: https://tubapastor.blogspot.com/2016/07 ... estra.html

And here is Conrad, with Victor, in 1918, playing a Holton:


1918 Herman Conrad with Holton tuba.jpg

Conrad passed away in 1920.

I like his artist's profile.