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A friend pulled this one - an Elkhart vintage 72H - off eBay for a fairly low price...
The contact points are all badly pitted, the bell section was cockeyed (both the main and F slide were twisted/skew), and it was all beat up.
Obviously, it had been re-lacquered with nitrocellulose at least thirty years ago, as the lacquer is brittle and dark.
The engraving was not heavily buffed, and it really doesn't (thankfully) look like they "buffed the sh!t out of it".

I took the slide apart and put the tubes on the lathe.
They actually were only a bit wobbly and - due to their high quality (outsides are 80:20 "gold" brass and insides are thicker nickel silver than most currently-made inside tubes) - straightened pretty easily.
I soldered the slide all back together, and replaced the patched/distressed nickel silver slide bow and cap with a new one.
(I'm usually not a "parts-changer" and actually usually "repair", so being a "parts-changer" - with the bow - was a bit of a luxury.
The 110/112H is basically an open-wrap post-Elkhart it-is-what-it-is quality version of the same instrument, thus parts availability.)
The original water key was all fubar, so I put it all back the way it is supposed to be and mounted it.

next: the distressed bell section:
After doing quite a bit of work on the bell, I started un-twisting the rest of the bell section.
After I sort-of got it back looking right, I started moving tuning slide tubes around (to achieve as-good-as or better-than factory alignment).
That took a really long time (probably over a hour...maybe two hours.
I also found a leak in the F-attachment tubing (a place that I neither un-soldered nor moved).
Finally, I dressed and swedged the rotor bearing to rid it of that annoying click noise.

I guess it could now use a new/gentle re-lacquer job (again)...or not.

Anyway, the thing's working really well.
Lower 1st position overtones - when tuned to A=440 - define that higher overtones (until one reaches the 8th partial - which is in tune) require letting the playing slide out just a bit.
The F-attachment circuit seems a bit long to me, but I'll let my friend decide.
I did go to the trouble to actually align (not just the main tuning slide, but also) the F-attachment tuning slide.
It's not ready for "the Bartok trick", but is now eligible to be made ready.

I cleaned up the solder joints "sorta pretty good", because I didn't want to bust my chops on an instrument with a very worn old finish - particularly if the owner then asks me if I'll strip, polish, and shoot lacquer on it.

Anyway, the thing works well (most importantly: the playing slide), and it formerly was pretty junky (and probably - from the looks of it - was a school horn, and was used in marching band).

This was for a VERY good and VERY loyal friend.
Otherwise, I might have asked a stranger questions like:
> "Am I putting out my very best efforts/talents fixing this thing all up JUST SO you can flip it?"
> "Why the hell did you buy this thing in this condition...You can't just assume that something like this can be repaired."











My friend has actually lately been using a 1970's MIRAPHONE-MADE COPY of a 72H...so here's a "real" one...and he can play-test it this weekend on this "of not much consequence" annual outdoor show that we do.

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... light+2022

Looks like a nice job, your friend’s a lucky person to both have such a nice instrument and to have you on his side.

Trombones can be amongst the most difficult of things to hold, the balance weight on the tuning slide is none-standard but it might well help and particularly so on a big bell bass trombone.

On single trigger trombones having an E pull on the F section slide is often desired (for the low B natural). It’s all a long time ago and I can’t say that I ever needed such a pull but on a single trigger bass trombone it might well be a bonus.

These old Conn bass slides are pretty heavy, and he likes having that extra weight back there, particularly since there’s not a second rotor.
They are scrounged parts: half of the balancer is Elkhart and half of the balancer is Abilene Texas, because The Texas half has “USA“ underneath the signature “CONN” embossed/bas-relief (??) letters.

The older I get, the lazier I get, but the volume of work doesn’t seem to decrease, so I tend to try to teach myself more and more tricks.
Some stuff that I’ve taught myself in the past two or three years is heating two or three solder joints at once to align outside slide tubes, rather than pulling something completely apart and putting it back together with good alignment.

There was a bit of a challenge with this one, because several of the socket flange assemblies are seized – even though it’s lead solder. One of them that is seized (both ends) is the big brace assembly across the main tuning slide, which presented quite a workaround, but I managed to figure out some workarounds for even that. After all, most European instruments don’t feature brace sockets, and I’m expected to align those as well. Thank goodness that lead soldering is so easy, and it’s just about as easy – if not easier – as caulking.

Bartok:
Emory Remington taught his students a trick that involved soldering a ring inside the bow of the F slide (after really working on that slide to make it move quite freely), fastening the other end of the string to the players shoe, and pulling that slide in from the low-B position to the F position simultaneously while doing a complete gliss on the playing slide. This results in a perfect low B to F glissando, and without renting some special “Bartok slide“ or having to ask for the tuba player’s assistance.

bloke “I need to take a good look at a picture of a 112H and a 110H to check on additional compatible parts. Someone - in the past - did the jackass thing of trying to yank or beat the F slide out when it was stuck. I did manage to do a pretty darn good save on the F slide bow, but I think it could use a new one.”
EDIT: after looking at pictures of those models, I’m going to have to look elsewhere for a 72H F slide bow. This one will do for now… Maybe (??) Miraphone will come to the rescue with a Kaiser baritone tuning slide bow that is just the right width.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:18 pm These old Conn bass slides are pretty heavy, and he likes having that extra weight back there, particularly since there’s not a second rotor.
They are scrounged parts: half of the balancer is Elkhart and half of the balancer is Abilene Texas, because The Texas half has “USA“ underneath the signature “CONN” embossed/bas-relief (??) letters.

I seem to remember those old Conns being sought after / respected. A period balance weight might be nice but anything that helps with balance is - well was for me - appreciated. Did I say earlier that Trombones are an ergonomic nightmare …

Bloke’s friend might already know of it, but perhaps this F slide modification might be of interest to someone:

aware…
…and i’ve had this discussion with the owner of the instrument shown in this thread…as he also – again – owns a Miraphone copy of a 72H.

It seems to me that for the vast majority of bass trombone playing (certainly symphonic playing, which tends to not be as technical as jazz band playing, and doesn’t dip into that range as often) this is a much better solution towards a chromatic instrument, because it’s less weight on the left hand and – as trombonists are so superstitious about bore distortions – this offers less of that. The added bonus is the super simple execution of the Bartok excerpt - as “Concerto for Orchestra” is a frequently programmed piece.

That gadgetry – again – weighs less than a second valve plus it’s gadgetry, but just enough more that someone could probably set their balancer aside.

That Conn 72H sounded great in tonight’s show.

The principal player uses an Elkhart CONN 8H, and studied at Indiana with Van Haney.

The second chair isn't filled, and we've been using some of our amazing local colleagues.
This one teaches at a major university (for those who care: with an amazingly high-scoring 4-0 - so far - 2022 football team) and is playing a Shires. He'll be doing one more concert with this orchestra (Carmina Burana - this next month...LOL, I've actually played this piece with him before in another orchestra), and then I'll be working with him in another "freeway philharmonic" where he serves as principal - yet another concert this next month, and a Christmas - whoops: "holiday" - show).

As can be seen, my buddy with the 72H (with its added CONN balancer) are in the foreground.

These two rehearsals and performance were the FIRST TIMES this instrument was played by this player.

FatBastard has a very easy time making trombone sections such as this one (which are already wonderfully blended, nicely-tuned, and actually PHRASE...you know: "music 'n' stuff") sound good.
As a matter-of-fact, all FatBastard only has to do is little more than to "do his job".

I'm half-tempted to do that Bartok conversion to my own single-valve Elkhart 72H.

I specify "single-valve" because I usually use my independent double-valve (Yamaha rotors) Elkhart 72H. I've been kicking around the idea of having the two combined into one modular instrument, making one of the bells a screw bell for travel and such.

Lots of orchestral bass trombone repertoire doesn't even need ONE valve, so I've thought of having the single valve section cut to G for those cases. However, I don't think I could do that and also have it convertible to an F length that can also be Bartok-ified. I suppose that means I must choose...

The second chair isn't filled

Maybe I’m biased but the 2nd Chair is best. Leave the clever stuff to the 1st and only do it if you have to - less stress - and why shoulder the weight of a bigger trombone on Bass if you don’t have to.

Feed back from the user on the benefits of adding a balance weight to a Bb/F Trombone would be interesting to me.

It must have been vary satisfying to see and hear the ‘recused’ instrument being played and well played, and particularly so by a good friend.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:41 am

The second chair isn't filled

Maybe I’m biased but the 2nd Chair is best. Leave the clever stuff to the 1st and only do it if you have to - less stress - and why shoulder the weight of a bigger trombone on Bass if you don’t have to.

Feed back from the user on the benefits of adding a balance weight to a Bb/F Trombone would be interesting to me.

It must have been vary satisfying to see and hear the ‘recused’ instrument being played and well played, and particularly so by a good friend.

Thanks for the kind words.
Assuming your moniker is your job, you know that (at least, in a symphony orchestra) one of the primary responsibilities of the 2nd tenor is tuning the low brass chords.

- The tuba and bass trombone (assuming a good bass section - and the orchestras with which I play are blessed with fine ones) need to be tuned with the basses.
- The principal trombone needs to be tuned with the trumpets (or with some other prominent alto/soprano-voiced instruments), and the second trombonist must - then - find a happy medium. If those other things are congruent, then a second trombonist's job is easy, but - if they are slightly out of kilter - the second trombonist has some value judgements to make.

Assuming your moniker is your job

Gosh no, I’m a Brass Band player and they have three Trombones in their Bands (I used to played 2nd Trombone and - not always successfully - resisted promotion to 1st). To my recollection the roles of the three Trombones in a Brass Band sound similar to those described above for when in an Orchestra.

At one time I had an interest in our local community Orchestra but it didn’t ’light my fire’ (far too many periods counting eighty plus bars of rest) whereas playing in Brass Bands suits me and Wind Bands can be OK providing you’re fluent in Bass Clef (bar the Bass Trombone all of the instruments in a Brass Band have their music supplied in transposed Treble Clef). Funnily enough Orchestral Brass does still appeal to me, but we’re talking Brass Quintets and the like.

Being a tenor player who reluctantly plays bass bone, I've explored some of the low range chromatic horn options. All of this messing around is just for 2 notes - C and B below the staff.

Some (not all) single valve bass bones allow the E-pull. It works, but takes about as much time as putting in a mute, if you have to make a quick change. As Nystrom says, it can lead to some hairy situations.

The bartok mechanism Nystrom shows in the video often comes up. I've never played one, but it looks practical.

You can also replace the F attachment tuning slide with an Eb slide, but this requires you to use 6th and 7th positions, which becomes less popular the younger other people get. I did this with a 70h, and it works. Low F is 6th, low E is 7th, Eb is trigger 1. Low C is trigger 5 (normal 6) and low B is long trigger 6 (way long normal 7). It works, and is the simple, but you give up the convenient F/E and C/B in trigger 1/2.

You can also get a plugin valve, and remove it when you don't want the weight or need the low C/B.

The fourth is an interesting option - cut the whole trombone to C, leave the the F attachment as is, and then add a independent normally-engaged Bb attachment, such that when disengaged, will flip the horn back to C. Low F is 6th (there is no 7th position). Low E and Eb are on the C side in 5th and 6th. Low C is a pedal note, as is low B. You give up low Db unless you have good false notes.

For the counterweight, I've never needed one for a trombone with a valve. It is probably used by people who are used to playing double valve instruments, and then move to a single, making it feel front heavy, even if it's not.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:50 am Being a tenor player who reluctantly plays bass bone, I've explored some of the low range chromatic horn options. All of this messing around is just for 2 notes - C and B below the staff.

Some (not all) single valve bass bones allow the E-pull. It works, but takes about as much time as putting in a mute, if you have to make a quick change. As Nystrom says, it can lead to some hairy situations.

The bartok mechanism Nystrom shows in the video often comes up. I've never played one, but it looks practical.

You can also replace the F attachment tuning slide with an Eb slide, but this requires you to use 6th and 7th positions, which becomes less popular the younger other people get. I did this with a 70h, and it works. Low F is 6th, low E is 7th, Eb is trigger 1. Low C is trigger 5 (normal 6) and low B is long trigger 6 (way long normal 7). It works, and is the simple, but you give up the convenient F/E and C/B in trigger 1/2.

You can also get a plugin valve, and remove it when you don't want the weight or need the low C/B.

The fourth is an interesting option - cut the whole trombone to C, leave the the F attachment as is, and then add a independent normally-engaged Bb attachment, such that when disengaged, will flip the horn back to C. Low F is 6th (there is no 7th position). Low E and Eb are on the C side in 5th and 6th. Low C is a pedal note, as is low B. You give up low Db unless you have good false notes.

For the counterweight, I've never needed one for a trombone with a valve. It is probably used by people who are used to playing double valve instruments, and then move to a single, making it feel front heavy, even if it's not.

All of those various workarounds...well...work.

As far as the C thing is concerned...
I've often thought about that and/but - over the last year or so (tuba-wise) - I'm finding myself becoming a "B-flat snob", and wonder if the same loss of resonance (hollowness - which occurs when tuba models are offered in alternate C versions) would occur with (particularly large bore tenor and bass) trombones.

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:50 amYou can also replace the F attachment tuning slide with an Eb slide, but this requires you to use 6th and 7th positions, which becomes less popular the younger other people get. I did this with a 70h, and it works. Low F is 6th, low E is 7th, Eb is trigger 1. Low C is trigger 5 (normal 6) and low B is long trigger 6 (way long normal 7). It works, and is the simple, but you give up the convenient F/E and C/B in trigger 1/2.

You kind of have to do this anyway with an E pull to get a real low B. Just pulling to in-tune low E (so that you don't have to use 7th for E and B) doesn't give you enough space on the end of the slide for an in-tune low B. You really have to pull a bit past E to get a real B, which means you've lost 7th and it's no different functionally than just plopping in an Eb slide. The 72H attachment is long enough to pull to nearly Eb, it's just a bit off the bumpers with the slide pulled all the way out.

For the counterweight, I've never needed one for a trombone with a valve. It is probably used by people who are used to playing double valve instruments, and then move to a single, making it feel front heavy, even if it's not.

The 72H/70H is a special case, as it has a heavy, extra-long slide (to facilitate a real low C in long 7th, which almost all other trombones do not actually have). This also means the bell section is shorter than other trombones. It's not extremely front-heavy, but it is definitely not balanced. Funnily enough, my 72H balances out nicely when I have the valve slide pulled all the way out to flat E, but when in F I do feel the weight out front.

On a related note, from day one of playing an F attachment everyone is taught that low B is the only note missing, which as mentioned above is not actually true unless you play a Conn 7xH with the long slide. Bach-length slides are nowhere close to long enough to play a low C in tune with the valve in F. So, most tenor players either just always play that note sharp and don't realize it, or lip it down to get in tune (again, often without realizing that's what they're doing). Studious tenor players will practice their false tone low B in trigger 3rd, but they should really be practicing their false tone low C in trigger 2nd as well (a note that only those crazy enough to play a single valve bass trombone on modern big band bass trombone parts will know...I speak from experience).

After writing all that out, I'm reminded once again why we have double-valve bass trombones. Although ergonomically challenged, they make everything so much easier.

A trombone with an F attachment is superior to a four valve non-compensating euphonium or tuba, but still lacking.
It seems to me that – again – an orchestral player can get by pretty darn well with a 72H - or something like that - with a contraption as seen in the video shown in a previous post in this thread…the bonus being that a 72H sounds so damn good, as long as the player doesn’t get carried away with mouthpiece size and muffle the instrument’s beautiful natural resonance tendencies.
I don’t play bass trombone worth a crap, but I know enough to know that two valves are needed for big band stuff and trombone choir stuff… but I don’t see that either of those pursuits pay any real money anywhere.

Two great posts above.

It seems to me that the smile on the owners face says it all: what he’s now got fits his particular needs pretty darn well. Well that and the fact that to be playing where he is he’s going to be an able player, smart, well informed and a generally good guy.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:33 pm
You kind of have to do this anyway with an E pull to get a real low B. Just pulling to in-tune low E (so that you don't have to use 7th for E and B) doesn't give you enough space on the end of the slide for an in-tune low B. You really have to pull a bit past E to get a real B, which means you've lost 7th and it's no different functionally than just plopping in an Eb slide. The 72H attachment is long enough to pull to nearly Eb, it's just a bit off the bumpers with the slide pulled all the way out.

Except that undoing an E or bE pull takes a matter of a second or two, but undoing an Eb slide takes a bit longer. I liked the way the 70h w/Eb sounded, but for tunes with a lot of Fs and Es, and especially E-Eb transitions, it got a bit old.

The 72H/70H is a special case, as it has a heavy, extra-long slide (to facilitate a real low C in long 7th, which almost all other trombones do not actually have). This also means the bell section is shorter than other trombones. It's not extremely front-heavy, but it is definitely not balanced. Funnily enough, my 72H balances out nicely when I have the valve slide pulled all the way out to flat E, but when in F I do feel the weight out front.

On a related note, from day one of playing an F attachment everyone is taught that low B is the only note missing, which as mentioned above is not actually true unless you play a Conn 7xH with the long slide. Bach-length slides are nowhere close to long enough to play a low C in tune with the valve in F. So, most tenor players either just always play that note sharp and don't realize it, or lip it down to get in tune (again, often without realizing that's what they're doing). Studious tenor players will practice their false tone low B in trigger 3rd, but they should really be practicing their false tone low C in trigger 2nd as well (a note that only those crazy enough to play a single valve bass trombone on modern big band bass trombone parts will know...I speak from experience).

After writing all that out, I'm reminded once again why we have double-valve bass trombones. Although ergonomically challenged, they make everything so much easier

I've spent much more time on 70h than 72. To be honest, I never got comfortable with 72h. It just tends a little too much toward the buzz-saw sound for me. Even with the TIS on the 70h, I don't remember ever feeling like I needed a weight.

I often will reach for low C on non-7xh horns. I have a Holton 159 right now (that actually does feel like it needs a weight, but I have a plug in valve for it) where I get within 20-30 cents of low C. It's obviously not ideal, but is it worth hauling more hardware to a gig where that happens 2-3 times? Depends on the gig and who's there.

A trombone with an F attachment is superior to ...

(doesn't matter what comes next).

Well, yeah, obviously.

It seems to me that – again – an orchestral player can get by pretty darn well with a 72H - or something like that....

...two valves are needed for big band stuff and trombone choir stuff… but I don’t see that either of those pursuits pay any real money anywhere.

I subbed at a big band recently where the music was mostly high school level, and yeah, a single valve bass was all that was needed, aside from the occasional low C. In fact, a lot of the music went above the staff, and it was much more a 3rd or 4th part than a bass part. My Kanstul was severe overkill for that set of music.

But when you play higher level music, or music written in or after the 1960s, you wind up down there more often, and that second valve pays off.

And if you wind up playing stuff with 4-5 flats or more, an independent valve setup can be a real help. Most people who buy bass bones insist on an independent, even though they don't seem to know why. Db and Gb can be played in way flat 1st position with just the second valve, and that saves your bacon when you have fast lines with those 5th position notes.

But yeah, a lot of orchestral and big band stuff is 3rd bone material, not dedicated bass. That's the kind of stuff the 72h with a 2G was made for. My Holton 159 is a step between a 72h and a large tenor. I would sell off that Kanstul in a minute except that below the staff it has this fuzzy velvet sound that I keep getting comments on, but above the staff it's like pushing a dead horse through a foot of mud. So I keep a "tweener" horn that sounds good with mouthpieces either side of 2G.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:20 pm All of those various workarounds...well...work.

As far as the C thing is concerned...
I've often thought about that and/but - over the last year or so (tuba-wise) - I'm finding myself becoming a "B-flat snob", and wonder if the same loss of resonance (hollowness - which occurs when tuba models are offered in alternate C versions) would occur with (particularly large bore tenor and bass) trombones.

I bought a tenor based on this idea (Yamaha 350C). And it's available for sale if you should want to check it out yourself. I thought I'd check out the idea first, then modify an actual horn if the idea seemed to work. Anyway, I thought that running the horn by default through the valve really led to a covered sort of sound. Not really stuffy, but just not as free and clear as you want a trombone to be. Another more high profile person took a bunch of measurements and he thought that the oddness in the response came from a mismatch of the main slide crook to the main slide tubes.

Tastes wise, the 60 series instruments were more of a revived 70H type of sound, but the 71/72/73H instruments still sound very nice, and not as much of a (ok) buzz saw some type of sound as something like an H. N. White era King Duo Gravis.