Higher than the top of the beat

[Mary Ann]

So --- I'm well aware that if I play so that I am visually right with the conductor, I am going to be behind the beat, sound-wise. And I verified that today by asking him. Our local symphony guy who retired quite a few years ago, would sometimes sit in with us in community bands, just because he was a nice guy and liked to play. He was always ahead of the beat noticeably when hearing him from the horn section, but in the audience, nope, right on time.

So --- how do you learn to do this? I'm just befuddling myself with my attempts. In something like a polka band, where everybody is sitting on top of each other, it isn't a problem, but when sitting in the back of a concert band, even moderately sized one, it is a problem I'd like to correct.

[2nd tenor]

I hesitate to offer a comment or two to folk who likely play better than me but maybe some part of what I write will help someone in some way.

From making a note at the mouthpiece until it arrives out of the bell there is a time delay, it’s small but it’s there. For the note to arrive out of the bell in time with the Conductor’s beat you have to anticipate his/her beat. There’s also a tendency for Basses to listen to the rest of the Band and then place their beat in sympathy with what they hear, so they’re controlled or driven - usually dragged back - by the Band. Of course some (other) sections of the Band believe themselves to be in time with the Conductor and they’re actually fractionally out.

Being driven by the Band is incorrect, Basses should be driven by the Conductor and the Conductor uses the Bass section to control the pace of the rest of the Band. There are also times when the Conductor wants to change the pace of the Band and is either trying to drag the Band forward or holding it back; a good Bass section will spot that intent and play slightly ahead or behind the beat accordingly.

Then there’s what sounds right, a bass beat starting a small fraction ahead of the rest of the Band sounds right to the audience, sound has to start first at the bottom of the Band - we provide the foundation up which all else is laid.

[GC]

^^^This^^^

It has taken me way too long to learn this. The natural delay that longer instruments have requires players to anticipate the beat by just a little to make the sound line up with the rest of the band. The lower the pitch of the instrument, the longer the natural delay.

Also room acoustics can drive you nuts. In a combo I played in for 40+ years, I often endured griping from the music director about me playing behind the beat, when the drummer and I both knew I was playing ahead of it. My speaker cabinet was between the drummer and keyboardist so they could both hear me clearly. They swore I was ahead of the beat, but the winds said I was behind. I finally took the speaker, put it beside me facing directly across the band, and the complaints ceased. They were hearing direct sound instead of a delayed reflection from the opposite wall. This can show up on tuba in churches where the basses are in back right in front of the back wall of the choir loft; the sound goes up the wall into the ceiling and then spreads into the audience seating, time-wise behind the rest of the band. Even when we play ahead of the beat, it shows up as late in the recordings.

You just have to cultivate the idea of playing ahead of the beat if you're a tuba player. I don't mean jumping the beat, but simply playing every note just ahead of where your instincts say the perfect beat is. It just works better. I wish I had learned this before I turned 70.

[bloke]

Music is sound - not a baton…
…but we are visual creatures, mostly.

I’m always striving to hear and sync with the violins, and - if I can’t hear them very well on a particular stage - I watch the concertmaster’s bow.

I believe the thing about the tuba sound happening late is 100% due to tuba players tending to enter after everyone else, and not really an acoustical thing.

We never hear about the basses’ sound being late - nor the bassoonists’.

[Mary Ann]

I hesitate to offer a comment or two to folk who likely play better than me but maybe some part of what I write will help someone in some way.

From making a note at the mouthpiece until it arrives out of the bell there is a time delay, it’s small but it’s there. For the note to arrive out of the bell in time with the Conductor’s beat you have to anticipate his/her beat. There’s also a tendency for Basses to listen to the rest of the Band and then place their beat in sympathy with what they hear, so they’re controlled or driven - usually dragged back - by the Band. Of course some (other) sections of the Band believe themselves to be in time with the Conductor and they’re actually fractionally out.

Being driven by the Band is incorrect, Basses should be driven by the Conductor and the Conductor uses the Bass section to control the pace of the rest of the Band. There are also times when the Conductor wants to change the pace of the Band and is either trying to drag the Band forward or holding it back; a good Bass section will spot that intent and play slightly ahead or behind the beat accordingly.

Then there’s what sounds right, a bass beat starting a small fraction ahead of the rest of the Band sounds right to the audience, sound has to start first at the bottom of the Band - we provide the foundation up which all else is laid.

You appear to be one who hears what I hear and has concluded what I have concluded. What I'm trying to figure out is how to accomplish that (and, BTW, the conductor knew exactly what I was talking about and heard what I heard; he was talking about playing on top of the beat, which VISUALLY I already am, but I need to VISUALLY play BEFORE the top of the beat. It is *not* about listening to the band and following the band; it's about properly driving the band from the bottom, especially on the oompah pieces where I am the only thing on the bottom besides the timid beginner on the bass drum.

If someone doesn't hear what I hear they aren't going to try to change anything, and perhaps they are already doing what I'm talking about and don't realize it because they developed that skill at a very young age before they had to think about it.

I'm remembering quite a while back when Empire Brass played a concert with the local (Tucson) symphony. The last piece, played all together, was S&S. The tuba player in the orchestra was the one whose sound always started before the beat when you were sitting near him; he played a 2155. From the audience, I could hear his OOMs clearly over the entire orchestra, and he was NOT EARLY. He was clearly driving the entire thing, right on time sound-wise. And I KNOW he played ahead of the beat.

[bloke]

If the beginning of the sound someone is making - that’s vibrating their head - is not drowning out the beginning of the sound of a percussion instrument or the beginning of the sound of the principal trumpet, they’re probably beginning their sound after those other musicians are beginning theirs.

Playing late is alluring and safe - just as riding in a bus requires much less concentration than driving a bus. Musicians rarely get called out for playing late, yet they certainly are immediately called out for playing early.
A tuba player or a tuba section playing late sucks the energy out of an ensemble.

Playing bass - OK, or tuba – and a small jazz/rock/polka/whatever ensemble teaches the ear and the body where the beginnings of pulses occur. Actually, playing in such an ensemble - where the drummer is slightly lazy - can teach the bass/tuba player even more, if they take on the responsibility of keeping things moving.
Playing in a “pretty good“ brass quintet – on the other hand – can do a pretty good job of poisoning someone’s sense of time.

[Jperry1466]

I always taught my band tuba sections not to play on my beat, but to make their sound arrive at the back row of the audience on my beat. Largely a mental concept, but it seemed to work well for us.

[Mary Ann]

The question remains of how did people learn to do that? I keep seeing "yeah we do that" and "yeah we taught them to do that,"

but how is it done? By gosh and by golly? How do you decide when to start the notes?

It seems like I have to assume I have a held-over grace note before every single beat, and I am finding that pretty impossible to "just do," along the same lines as rubbing your stomach and patting your head for someone who can't do that (I can do THAT.) I have a lifetime of playing instruments that respond so that I can play ON the beat and the sound gets where it should when it should.

[prairieboy1]

I hesitate to offer a comment or two to folk who likely play better than me but maybe some part of what I write will help someone in some way.

From making a note at the mouthpiece until it arrives out of the bell there is a time delay, it’s small but it’s there. For the note to arrive out of the bell in time with the Conductor’s beat you have to anticipate his/her beat. There’s also a tendency for Basses to listen to the rest of the Band and then place their beat in sympathy with what they hear, so they’re controlled or driven - usually dragged back - by the Band. Of course some (other) sections of the Band believe themselves to be in time with the Conductor and they’re actually fractionally out.

Being driven by the Band is incorrect, Basses should be driven by the Conductor and the Conductor uses the Bass section to control the pace of the rest of the Band. There are also times when the Conductor wants to change the pace of the Band and is either trying to drag the Band forward or holding it back; a good Bass section will spot that intent and play slightly ahead or behind the beat accordingly.

Then there’s what sounds right, a bass beat starting a small fraction ahead of the rest of the Band sounds right to the audience, sound has to start first at the bottom of the Band - we provide the foundation up which all else is laid.

Nailed it! Well Done!!

[bloke]

Mary Ann,
We learn to time our sonic events in the same way that trapeze artists learn to time their spacial events.

I went and rehearsed with a community band tonight that consists of a bunch of very nice people. I have about a ten day space between engagements, I’ve been pushing myself really hard to get caught up on (non-playing) work such as instrument repairs and house maintenance; the tuba has been sitting. Those people are nice to me and let me come play with them when I haven’t had face time with my instrument.

As far as the trapeze artists analogy goes, though…
They would need a really good safety net.

[Mary Ann]

That translates to "by gosh and by golly."

So I'll go and just start anticipating the beat as best I can and see what happens. I may just turn on the metronome and see if I can regularly beat it to the punch without driving myself totally insane, at a variety of tempos. That local guy who anticipated the beat, it was clearly audible that he was ahead, from inside the band, and clearly audible from the audience that he was right on it.

Frustrating to know you're doing something you don't want to do and not being able to find your way to doing it better. Once you are at pro level on ANYTHING (for me it was violin) you don't change your expectations of yourself even if you can't meet them.

[bloke]

I repeat myself too often, but this:

I've played three runs of the (formerly touring) Broadway show, "Chicago", over the years.

The tuba/bass book is rudimentary but essential.

Each time I played a run, I decided to work on accomplishing something that might improve myself.

1st time:
"I'm up here elevated on the back of the stage with the entire show right in front of my eyes.
I WILL NOT become distracted by the show, and will enter EVERY TIME (never missing an entrance) without the pitfall of being lulled into watching the show."

2nd time:
"There are about ten to fifteen "sub-styles" of Tin Pan Alley music in this show. I'm going to play each of those appropriate sub-styles (sound lengths, sound decay amounts, appropriate prominence of the bass line, etc., etc.) on each number."

3rd time:
"The percussionist is immediately to my left - about eight feet down. I'm never going to allow myself to hear the beginnings of ANY of his sounds/events when I'm supposed to be entering at precisely those same instants. I WILL ALWAYS ALSO ALREADY BE PLAYING."

verbiage:
I really don't like the tuba vernacular of "anticipating the beat", which can easily degenerate into "rushing". I prefer to concentrate on being in-the-moment (actually: in-the-instant).

[LibraryMark]

I have never ascribed to the notion that tubas need to be ahead of the beat to reach the audience the same time as the rest of the band. The speed of sound is the same whether you play tuba or piccolo. I think that this all started with band directors who have tuba sections with response problems. It drives me crazy when I sit next to a tuba player who believes in this so much that they are ahead of the band and continue to pull ahead. It's called rushing, pure and simple. Work on a good quick response and there is no need to over-think it otherwise.

[BopEuph]

I've played three runs of the (formerly touring) Broadway show, "Chicago", over the years.

It's back on tour, but Networks handed the show over to a new touring company called Apex Touring. They decided to go with self-contained. I think it was a combination of the headache of inconsistent local musicians, finding doublers, and keeping ahead of health-related issues in regards to new people every venue. I'm currently the tuba/bassist.

The tuba/bass book is rudimentary but essential.

It's a deceptively tricky book with how much it bounces around different octaves. I just use my 12J on the show, but Billy's song (All I Care About) plays in the upper octave the first half of the tune, and I'm just now getting comfortable without chipping every one of those notes.

That being said, it's still incredibly simple in terms of bassline construction and note choices.

1st time:
"I'm up here elevated on the back of the stage with the entire show right in front of my eyes.
I WILL NOT become distracted by the show, and will enter EVERY TIME (never missing an entrance) without the pitfall of being lulled into watching the show."

Same here. I'm now at the point that I don't even open the book for sound checks, and am playing a lot of stuff from memory because of the awful page/instrument changes with the last ~5 numbers moving very quickly and no real rests. So I'm watching so much of the show at this point.

2nd time:
"There are about ten to fifteen "sub-styles" of Tin Pan Alley music in this show. I'm going to play each of those appropriate sub-styles (sound lengths, sound decay amounts, appropriate prominence of the bass line, etc., etc.) on each number."

The Broadway conductor (Rob Bowman) is very insistent on about 90% of the show being staccatissimo. I got in the habit of doing it that way.

3rd time:
"The percussionist is immediately to my left - about eight feet down. I'm never going to allow myself to hear the beginnings of ANY of his sounds/events when I'm supposed to be entering at precisely those same instants. I WILL ALWAYS ALSO ALREADY BE PLAYING."

The original placement of tuba/bass is stage left, with drums immediately above and behind, and banjo below and in front (though we're on the old 10 piece reduction, so banjo is actually sitting with the brass where bone 2 would be). The benefit of having the kick about three feet from my ear is bittersweet--but also forces me to lock in with him 100%.

verbiage:
I really don't like the tuba vernacular of "anticipating the beat", which can easily degenerate into "rushing". I prefer to concentrate on being in-the-moment (actually: in-the-instant).

I think this idea comes from music education where band directors parroting back the same exact thing their band directors said, all the way back 100 years. The truth of the matter is sound travels at roughly 750mph (or 1100 feet/second), and 16 feet at that point is negligible. The real reason is, if you haven't spent time working on very pointed, articulate entrances, you're not really used to your lips vibrating immediately on the articulation.

The 2019 production of the Chicago tour had a drummer that thanked me after every show for "being locked in with him, because so many tuba players are always behind the beat." A conductor made a good point by saying "we would get so many tuba players all over the country that would use these car-sized horns, and would sound great, and would play every note with such conviction and beautiful sounds, but could not play on the beat." At the time, I was still chipping a LOT of notes, and both of them would say "it's still much better than perfect technique, yet behind the beat." Thankfully, though, I've nipped the chipped notes in the bud at this point...probably at a 2% of notes chipped now, where it was probably 20% three years ago (also, I gave the tuba a bath earlier this week, it was probably 15%...I was amazed at how many chipped notes happened with a dirty horn, even without sticking valves).

The two things that helped me so much:

1.) Being a bassist, understanding the pulse, and playing those basslines on tuba.
2.) I wrote a biography on Duck Dunn...learning his simple, syncopated and very in-the-pocket basslines helped immensely on ALL of my bass instruments.
3.) The quarter note etudes in the articulation section of the Arban book. Set the metronome to 60, and try to get the notes so perfectly centered on the beat, that it sounds like your metronome stopped working.
4.) As a bassist, I have issues counting.

Quick edit: I want to expand on number 2:

The first thing I keep remembering about Duck's lines, is his advice from drummer Al Jackson telling Duck to play beat one, wait for Al to play beat two, THEN play (the and of two). That's where his dotted quarter, eighth pattern came from. It was the "listening to the drummer" that helps, and more than that, in big band swing, the drummer usually plays quarter notes on the kick along with the walking bassline. When I was in college, Ellis Marsalis came through, and explained that the kick of the drums are the bass, the bass is actually the mids, and the piano is the treble. It took me 20 years to understand that the kick is the articulation and the bass is the harmonic information of the kick drum--so blending the two gives a really nice color. As the low end, I've approached blending with the kick in the same way, say, flutes and oboes might blend in a soli passage. This is about the time the phone starting ringing much more often.

[2nd tenor]

This is a side bar and I hope that no one minds me asking what might be a slightly diversionary question - my suspicion is that the answer will feedback something additionally useful to addressing parts of the original post. I’m primarily thinking of Bob’s post above as a professional player (him being) and his post does prompt my question.

What is a Bassist and why is there such a thing? Does it involve having and playing many different instruments well? I’ve no experience of Bob’s line of work (theatre pit musician?) and how things are done in the USA might not match what’s done here in the UK.

Chipped notes? I’m not familiar with that term but if the Bob means split notes or ones of poor tone due to lip control issues then the answer that I found is use a slightly smaller mouthpiece (eventually use as big as you can manage and as small as will do the job … those sizes need to overlap). Yep, bigger typically gives a fuller tone but IMHO the more fundamental and important thing is to play the right note cleanly … but maybe I’m completely wrong. For what it’s worth I found that the shift from a Trombone mouthpiece to a Tuba mouthpiece was hard and until my chops fully strengthened - which took many months - I did split some notes. If I’m out of practice I’ll revert to a smaller cup for a while, for me it makes a difference to lip control and hardly any difference to other stuff - secure the cake, the other stuff is just icing on the cake. Well, that’s my amateur experience.

[bloke]

- A "bassist" (at least, in USA musician vernacular) is just a "string bass player"...ie. (formal orchestral/academic term) "contrabass player".

- "Split notes"...just as you surmise, occur when the embouchure/air/tension are set off/away from the intended partial, and the beginning of the event involves the wrong pitch. Playing a B-flat tuba (regardless of size) requires more concentration in this regard, due to the very long "bugle", and [OPINION] is one of the main issues that lures players to C instruments (which slightly reduce the chance of this occurring, and with the trade-off being a loss of resonance).

[BopEuph]

- A "bassist" (at least, in USA musician vernacular) is just a "string bass player"...ie. (formal orchestral/academic term) "contrabass player".

Yes, but in my context, I do mean electric bass as well as double bass...and many times, I refer to myself as a bassist while on tuba, since that's the role I'm typically playing. I would love to play more orchestral music, but I'm not about to put that insane amount of time in to convince someone I'm worth $100/service (end rant).

- "Split notes"...just as you surmise, occur when the embouchure/air/tension are set off/away from the intended partial, and the beginning of the event involves the wrong pitch. Playing a B-flat tuba (regardless of size) requires more concentration in this regard, due to the very long "bugle", and [OPINION] is one of the main issues that lures players to C instruments (which slightly reduce the chance of this occurring, and with the trade-off being a loss of resonance).

I never thought about that, but I HAVE considered that an Eb/F tuba might fit the sound design concept of Chicago much better, and be much easier to sit in the upper range more often. The tradeoff being that the low notes in that show typically are meant to be smacked in a number of places. One of these days, I want to get a bass horn, and hopefully sooner than later. Maybe I'll do it when I clear out all my debt--and the car's almost paid off!

Also, since I began on euphonium 30 years ago, I just never wanted to rework my fingerings because I wanted the fastest possible route to gigging...and improvising a bassline means I'll very likely almost always want to default to Bb fingering.

Also, cleaning the horn drastically lowered my chipped note count...I knew it would help with the cruddy valves (which 2nd valve started sticking again last night--really time to get that cluster overhauled), but even when the valves weren't getting in the way, chipped notes were drastically improved after cleaning. I suppose that it's because my concentration wasn't on my frustration that the valves were iffy.

[bloke]

You need to understand that I wasn’t calling you out for any shortcomings, and was explaining why it takes more focus/ concentration/precision for someone - who’s moving over to tuba - to play a B-flat tuba with precision versus the shorter tubas.

bass/electric bass guitar…whatever.
A good versatile bassist plays both.

I don’t think I’ve ever played the Broadway show, “Chicago” on a shorter tuba.
I’m not sure I would consider it, other than with my large recording bell compensating fully-chromatic Besson E-flat.

[2nd tenor]

Thank you for what the definition of what a bassist is / was intended to be.

If other folk manage to play Chicago on a BBb then stick with what you have and look at your high range capabilities and set-up. A smaller mouthpiece helps me with the higher notes (‘Bach’ 25, not expensive second-hand, and I suspect that it’ll be OK for the full pitch range of a three valve BBb) and so does specific practice (like playing simple tunes and exercises up an octave).

Yep, an Eb tuba with a fourth valve will make the high notes in bass stave easier, but parts of the low range will require playing valve combinations through the fourth valve and playing through the fourth valve can get stuffy - just my experience with what I have. Four valve compensating Eb’s are also expensive, and who wants to learn an extra set of fingering - learning time is not earning time - focus on polishing what you have in ways that will make it even more money making.

On sticking valves the old Besson three valve Eb that I have had intermittent sticking valves, that sticking has been cured with: repeated cleaning of the (inside of) the valve casings, repeated cleaning of the valves, clearing of (tiny amounts of) muck and burrs from the casing keyways, plenty of oil, and plenty of use (playing). Your valves springs are likely to already be OK but a fresh set won’t be expensive, ’always’ oil your valves before a performance; sticking valves are almost always and an avoidable impediment.

I’m going back to the main topic now, but will happily share the little that I know on separate thread.

[BopEuph]

You need to understand that I wasn’t calling you out for any shortcomings, and was explaining why it takes more focus/ concentration/precision for someone - who’s moving over to tuba - to play a B-flat tuba with precision versus the shorter tubas.

Oh no! I didn't think you were. I just didn't realize that smaller horns were a bit easier when it comes to precision, but it obviously makes sense.

bass/electric bass guitar…whatever.
A good versatile bassist plays both.

Agreed.

I don’t think I’ve ever played the Broadway show, “Chicago” on a shorter tuba.
I’m not sure I would consider it, other than with my large recording bell compensating fully-chromatic Besson E-flat.

I only thought about it for sound design and space considerations. In much more live venues, the sound engineer will have a much more difficult time keeping a large horn in check; and that little space I have is hard to organize when they give you a 4x4 space for a bass, tuba, and your body. What's cool, though, is that sometime in the last five years, one of the carpenters cut out a triangular "hole" in a corner of the space that the horn fits down in, and you can put the horn down in rather than putting it on its bell right in front of that lip (and four-foot drop). The only issue is the hole itself has a "lip" and I've already hit a valve stem on it, and it's going to need a repair after this run. Also, IF I rejoin the tour next year (and I'm really leaning more to "not"), and my 12J is in the shop, I would be forced to bring the Kanstul, and that size would be disastrous for all of the above reasons...though it's obviously a better horn.