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Looks like B&S is resurrecting the Besson 995 tooling. What’s also interesting is the third photo/slide in this post mentioning that at least part of the manufacturing is being done in China.

The 4/4 Walter Nirschl design played well, the Besson version was close. This is supposed to be an improvement upon the 995.

At least it’s a 4/4 CC.

Isn't that (westernized name for the factory) Wisemann place making a bunch of their stuff ?

- of note:
The Wisemann 900 tuba has disappeared from the Wisemann website.
The Schreiber low-end Buffet clarinets are no longer made by Schreiber...so where do you suppose they're made, now?

No idea what’s been farmed out in the past, but now it looks like a Chinese made tuba is being labeled as a B&S with some amount of transparency.

I've seen 7XX series stuff (reportedly made by Wisemann...??) sold in the past as "Besson International" or some such.

Very nearly the build quality of JP.

I played a 995 once (Sam Pilafian's, at a workshop) and liked it. It didn't have the front piston ergonomic problems for me that most have, at least that I remember, but that was a long time ago. But it was still HUGE. Who knows, maybe -in some future fantasy- I'll end up with something like this.
Looks neat. I hope it is really good.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:54 am Isn't that (westernized name for the factory) Wisemann place making a bunch of their stuff ?

I think B&S bought the factory that made the wiseman, that’s why they no longer exists. I think that’s the same factory were they now make the Besson Chinese student Model tubas. That’s also where they make this tuba.

It’s definitely based on the 995, but Mr. P said they made all new tooling and tweaked the design. It’s a little bigger than the Nirschl 4/4.

It played well, I definitely preferred the ursus for a large bore piston 4/4 CC, but I get how someone could really dig this tuba, and coming in at around $7,000 it’s very competitive in the Chinese tuba market.


Also side note, the John packer 4/4 Cc played way better than the Adam’s 4/4 CC, and I think they’re based on the same Hirsbrunner design.

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:41 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:54 am Isn't that (westernized name for the factory) Wisemann place making a bunch of their stuff ?

I think B&S bought the factory that made the wiseman, that’s why they no longer exists. I think that’s the same factory were they now make the Besson Chinese student Model tubas. That’s also where they make this tuba.

It’s definitely based on the 995, but Mr. P said they made all new tooling and tweaked the design. It’s a little bigger than the Nirschl 4/4.

It played well, I definitely preferred the ursus for a large bore piston 4/4 CC, but I get how someone could really dig this tuba, and coming in at around $7,000 it’s very competitive in the Chinese tuba market.


Also side note, the John packer 4/4 Cc played way better than the Adam’s 4/4 CC, and I think they’re based on the same Hirsbrunner design.

I'm not sure that anyone can actually "buy" anything in China - other than products...but I'll willing to be corrected.
I might guess (??) that a particular factory might agree to product exclusively for one customer - provided that customer kept them completely busy.
There's still a Wisemann website with some tubas, but the 900 model is noticeably absent.

I understand endorsements and all that, but (Ursus-wise - as you brought it up), the 2155 (with an aftermarket smaller mouthpipe) is clearly (to my judgement) superior, and (if I was looking for a C instrument - and in that size range), that's what I would be seeking.

Being a JP dealer, I should probably keep my mouth shut and just accept the positive comments, but I just have never been fond of ANY of the Swiss designs of tubas. I will sell those JP HB-21/392/Adams-style JP C tubas for very competitive pricing (and the built quality is exquisite), but first I always make sure that the person who is buying it is completely familiar with the playing characteristics of an HB-21/392/Adams 4/4 C tuba.

As far as the Nirschl 4/4 design is concerned (whether licensed, unlicensed, or using "Nirschl" in the product name) there have been so many editions of that shape/size/style of tuba, that I've lost track of the sourcing of all of them (Nirschl himself, eastern Germany, Brazil, China, China...others...??). The BEST one of those that I ever played was a so-called "hand-made" Nirschl one. It wouldn't play up to 440, and the mouthpipe was rotting. I worked out a shorter (new/replacement: duh) mouthpipe, got the instrument to be able to (scantly) be able to be played up to 441, and did a bit of other work on it. I was a great instrument (with very easy tuning characteristics) - and with my only issue being the (ref: Roger Bobo's comment about all of the 19" bell compensating E-flat tubas) it seemed to only be capable of producing one type of sound: "pretty"

Guess they need to update the back cover of their catalog...

I'm curious about this horn and am looking forward to hopefully trying it out at the Army Workshop.

I remember playing the 995 when it first came out at the same workshop and I loved it (what - 12-15 years ago?). It's clearly meant to compete in the same space as the 3225 (as a bargain offering), the Eastman 832/632, the Mack Brass iteration (Zo Thunderbird?) and a probably few others. There will always be a market for good 4/4 piston CC tubas.

I'm not feeling it with my 6/4 piston F, and I'm kicking around a 3/4 or 4/4 CC replacement to compliment my Eastman 836. This will get a close look for sure.

Are we approaching a time when ALL tubas will be Chinese? I mean, at least it used to be easier to tell. You had the “usual suspects”. But B&S for heaven’s sake? What’s next? “Miraclones” that actually have “Miraphone” engraved on the bell?

Interesting. I wonder why they chose that particular model, of all things. It never seemed to be particularly popular. Not only that, but, as mentioned, the Nirschl still exists, as well as that ZO clone. Crowded market for the same horn.

I've played the ZO clone and the Ursus, and the ZO is the better tuba. I dislike the Ursus purely based on the ergonomics. (Also, it's just a redesigned Pt-606, which, to me, isn't all that good of a tuba to begin with). I also notice there have been TWO Ursus's on sale for MONTHS with little to no interest, it seems. I wonder if it's both a market thing and just a "nobody wants that particular model" thing.

It's interesting to me how this market changes over the years; We just saw a handmade Baer sell for $12K. Tubas that used to be $XX,XXX are now either MUCH less $XX,XXX, or even $X,XXX. The Chinese stuff really has hurt the value of the German horns, huh? Seems to me that now is not the time to move your nice German tuba if you want to get the maximum $$ for it.

To be clear, I'm not at all interested in this particular model or design, BUT I would find it interesting to have a real Nirschl along with these clones side by side for a shootout. I'd also be interested in the fit and finish of this 795 tuba compared to the rest of the B&S line.

I hope to go to TMEA in San Antonio in February. I’ll try it if they bring it. I was never really knocked out by the 995, the PT 606 was “ok”, and I was NOT a fan of the Ursus. Maybe the improvements will make it palatable…?

If I was going to get a 4/4 CC (that wasn’t the blokespecial 186), I’d be looking at an Eastman 632 or 832, a PT 4, or a Miraphone Bruckner. Or an early vintage HB 2/HB 2P. Or a new Alexander if I had the budget.


Doc (who doesn’t care for the HB 21 and its equivalents/copies)

In the meantime, Miraphone is focusing their attention on all German made B-flat tubas.

Doc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:43 am I hope to go to TMEA in San Antonio in February. I’ll try it if they bring it. I was never really knocked out by the 995, the PT 606 was “ok”, and I was NOT a fan of the Ursus. Maybe the improvements will make it palatable…?

If I was going to get a 4/4 CC (that wasn’t the blokespecial 186), I’d be looking at an Eastman 632 or 832, a PT 4, or a Miraphone Bruckner. Or an early vintage HB 2/HB 2P. Or a new Alexander if I had the budget.


Doc (who doesn’t care for the HB 21 and its equivalents/copies)

@Doc, I will have to bring my PT-5P to rehearsal sometime. I chose it over an HB 2P.

viewtopic.php?t=5571#p56071


I couldn't help noticing that another Chinese Nirschl with a case and bag sold for around 5,000 bucks recently.
I'm sure - based on the seller - that it was in really nice shape.

...so how much do these other Chinese Nirschls cost?

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:47 am In the meantime, Miraphone is focusing their attention on all German made B-flat tubas.

The Melton/B&S peeps are also focusing development on “orchestral” Bb tubas. I get it.

Tuba1153 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:34 am

Doc wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:43 am I hope to go to TMEA in San Antonio in February. I’ll try it if they bring it. I was never really knocked out by the 995, the PT 606 was “ok”, and I was NOT a fan of the Ursus. Maybe the improvements will make it palatable…?

If I was going to get a 4/4 CC (that wasn’t the blokespecial 186), I’d be looking at an Eastman 632 or 832, a PT 4, or a Miraphone Bruckner. Or an early vintage HB 2/HB 2P. Or a new Alexander if I had the budget.


Doc (who doesn’t care for the HB 21 and its equivalents/copies)

@Doc, I will have to bring my PT-5P to rehearsal sometime. I chose it over an HB 2P.

Sounds good to me.

matt g wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:29 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:47 am In the meantime, Miraphone is focusing their attention on all German made B-flat tubas.

The Melton/B&S peeps are also focusing development on “orchestral” Bb tubas. I get it.

Back in my so-called “heyday” (80’s), my private teacher played Bb exclusively and was principal in a second-tier city’s symphony orchestra. I myself played first a Bb Meinl Weston 25 then an Amati (Cerveny) for everything, including a community orchestra. My whole tuba career, even as an undergrad, nobody ever tried to switch me to C. The attitude of my teacher was “I play Bb in orchestra, I do very well, no one cares what key my horn is as long as I sound good”. And so that was my attitude too. But we were both very aware that we were outliers and most of our colleagues were on C horns. So now I’m hearing that playing Bb in orchestras are a thing? Were my teacher and I 30 years ahead of our time?