flat E in staff on 184

[Mary Ann]

You know what? I can't figure out why the seller of this 184 could not get the E-in-the-staff in tune when doing the zoom demo, because I can. I have to figure, based on what is probably typical tuba training, he has always moved slides to get the pitch most resonant, that is, in the middle of the slot as much as possible. However, this E can be lipped into tune, and of course you can't move a slide (other than the main, if it happens to be out far enough to start with) to raise the open pitch. I'm a lipper, not a slide puller, and at my level it works perfectly fine. I'm also a lipper on my horn, which also works perfectly fine (but it is a very, very fine instrument to start with.) Fascinating. Here I was doing backflips trying to memorize weird alternate fingerings only to finally realize I could just "do it my way" and have it work out. And if it happens to be the third in a C major chord, I can almost just leave it alone. I will note that brass intonation, in the groups I play in, is less demanding than violin intonation in the groups I used to play with. Nuf said.

[Mary Ann]

A proficient tuba player will play in tune without pulling slides. This is necessary since slide adjustments might not be executed as fast as the valves are changed.

There are several notable tuba players playing notably out of tune tubas very much in tune without issue and without slide manipulation.

There are also several fine players that do a lot of slide pulling. However, I’d note that most of them are usually quite strategic about it. Long notes, certain notes within the chord progression, etc. may be set several notes before executed at the expense of lipping leading notes.

Having said all of that, sure, there are lots of young players emulating this approach without fully understanding what/where/when/why/how. Maybe that makes things more complicated for them with regards to lipping? I dunno.

I just know that I played in tune on a 2340/2450 in high school and a 186 when I got that. All without slide manipulation (although I was conscious of where slides needed to be set). Upon acquiring a YCB-822S and “getting serious” I found a need to manipulate slides. Primarily because of that horn. My 188 didn’t need much, but I had set up the 4th and 5th such that I was playing D below the staff 1+3 so that needed a slight pull and D in the staff needed to be pushed in. Small (like <1/4”) adjustments between Bb and Fs across octaves. (Also… 5+2+3 for low F… killer)

My current horns have decent scales when setup properly. Adjustments are the usual stuff like pushing in for D in the staff and pulling for low Eb. Fourth only gets pulled for low D. There isn’t much around that problem with 5 valves available.

One place that slide pulling is really helpful is when playing for extended periods. Like strolling sousaphone stuff. Having notes like low C that’s in tune with a pullable first valve slide seems to save a decent bit of chops since lipping flat usually requires some antagonistic work (firmer corners with a relaxed jaw and tongue) that can wear on the player after an hour or so.

Also adding:

If the prior owner was using a mouthpiece that had too deep of a cup, the pitch of the horn might’ve been sagging in mid to high register playing as well.

An interesting notion that I’ve found is that a mouthpiece can be too big for a small tuba insofar that the pitch suffers. I haven’t found the opposite to be true, regarding a small mouthpiece on a big tuba, but I’ve not used overly extreme examples.

[bloke]

Vintage model 84 tubas offer pretty stinky un-corrected 5th partial pitches (at least the open and 2nd valve pitches), but those can be moved up by player embouchure manipulation.

Obviously an "open E" in a first-inversion C major chord is going to be luxurious, because that sounds better flat-to-equal-temperament anyway...

My huge new-to-me model 98 B-flat Miraphone has a really (really) nice "open/5th partial D (and - somehow - without the 6th partial F being sharp...??) but the 2nd valve C-sharp is saggy...yet - easily "favored/lipped" - not as saggy as with those vintage 84 instruments (as I've both owned multiple C and B-flat of those, so I know from experience). C and B-natural (1 and 1-2) are/were also saggy (yet also embouchure "lippable"), but (as I've shortened the #1 circuit by approximately an inch), are now "spot-on" with the #1 slide all the way in...and that slide glides with the ease of a piston valve.

Many older tubas with NOT-saggy 5th partial pitches (as touched on above) seem to suffer from sharp 6th and even 8th partial pitches. Some of the R. Meinl model C instruments fit into this grouping (in particular the 5/4 one that they refer to as "4/4", and the 4/4 one that they refer to as "3/4", with some of the huge 6/4 ones - to which they refer to as "5/4" - behaving better, in this particular regard.)

The computer programs used in the last several years (to help determine "best tuning compromises" of bugle tapers) have suppressed some of these tendencies, with many (certainly not all) older models of tubas presenting players with epic problems overcoming wretched intonation tendencies.

[cjk]

The Miraphone 184 CC which I previously owned had enough resistance in it that it was fairly easy to lip up the e and e flat as long as one had plenty of air. If one was running out of air, they’d get played with 1+2 and 2+3.

It was a great little tuba and I do miss it. :)

[Mary Ann]

It's the biggest CC I think I can handle that has ergonomics that work. It's taking a while to get it to "go" but the Eb also took a while to get to "go" so I'm confident of the final result. The 184 however can't take "fast air" the way the Eb can, and I am somewhat concerned about being able to play it loudly enough to be heard in the 40 piece band that I am the only tuba. We shall see, when things start up again in January. My previous 184 I played in two community orchestras and also on the Eb part in the brass band, so my ability to play it is in there somewhere.