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I can't seem to find his original comment/question, but I believe that @martyneilan asked me about the often-troublesome 2-3 valve combination "up in the staff" with a large B-flat tuba (months ago).

I've thought about that (and WORKED on that) a great deal since, and offer these comments:

Yes, it's a pitch which seems to require particular player accuracy, because:

- There's no pitch that high nor higher which requires as much tubing.

- That pitch with a B-flat tuba requires even more tubing than with a C tuba.

- Since that pitch is a step lower with a B-flat tuba, it appears in written music more often than the 2-3 pitch (a step higher) which occurs with a C tuba.

With my still-new-to-me/still-learning very large German "kaiser" B-flat tuba, I've uncovered a few things:

- First, the #3 rotor strike bumper was failing, which was causing me to rotate that particular rotor - from time-to-time - too far, as to expose the rotor's vent. (dumb, unobservant bloke) That certainly wasn't contributing to a good focused sound on that pitch, and - (well...) prior to that mechanical issue diagnosis - I found that I was "muscling" that pitch out via (mostly) sheer will (even when I recorded that little Mahler excerpt, which features a WHOLE BUNCH O' THEM THERE 2-3-up-in-the-staff NOTES).

- Second, that 2-3 8th partial pitch (pictured above), the 3rd partial pitch (D-sharp/E-flat), and the 2nd partial pitch ("low" F-sharp) - all played with valves 2-and-3 - are often fairly in-tune with each other, whereby the 4th partial 2-3 pitch (F-sharp/G-flat at the bottom of the staff) is often flatter than the other three. Thus, we (...OK: I/me) tend to move the 3rd slide in to "favor" the flat 4th partial 2-3 pitch. That's just not going to help the 8th partial focus of that pitch at all, UNLESS a player is perfectly willing to play that 8th partial pitch (re: the "tricky" one) stinky sharp...so it's probably best (at least ME with THIS instrument) to keep the #3 slide OUT farther, for the three roughly-in-tune-with-the-slide-out-farther pitches, and just deal with the 4th partial (F-sharp/G-flat at the bottom of the staff) pitch with "lipping" - as it's really quite flexible, and doesn't seem to suffer very much at all from being "lipped" upward in pitch.

I heard an extremely fine trumpet player friend of mine (who wasn't particularly interested in teaching until a brush with death...and now seems more eager to pass on knowledge) helping out another player by telling them, "The reason that you continue to crack that note is because you're trying to play it in tune, and it's not in tune on your instrument. Either figure out a way to mechanically manipulate your instrument so as that pitch is in tune, shop for another instrument, or attach the pitch out-of-tune, and THEN move the pitch in-tune absolutely as quickly as possible. Otherwise, you'll miss it every time. (His primary trumpet is outfitted with a tune-any-note device...Actually, he had me to design/install it decades ago.)

Try 1st valve? The Ab works great on many CC horns with 1st valve, so might work on the Gb (on BBb). Worth a try.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:33 pm Try 1st valve? The Ab works great on many CC horns with 1st valve, so might work on the Gb (on BBb). Worth a try.

saw your suggestion under the deleted glitch-post...thanks! ...and I'm glad you re-posted, because it could really help some folks with some instruments.

I've shortened the #1 circuit on this particular instrument so as second space C can be played in tune with no favoring...so I've already shortened it by over an inch (total - 5/8" x 2) and the only additional shortening would be via shortening the slide tubes themselves (which would limit tuning on other pitches).

As it is - with this particular instrument - the "center" for that upper F-sharp (with 1st valve slide all the way in) is about 20c below good tuning - with the #1 slide all the way in.

As you, others, and I already know, trombonists are taught to play that equivalent pitch with "1st valve" (aka 3rd position), but - of course - they can "push in" quite far.

That having been said, theres' a great deal LESS chance of splatting that pitch with too MUCH tubing - vs. too little.

This is probably over simplified but my approach is Hear It... SING it... Play It . It's not like a guitar or other fretted string instrunent(piano included) where you meticulously tune then push then key or string between the frets. It is more like singing. It's more of a "hear it" thing. Ed

edfirth wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:39 pm This is probably over simplified but my approach is Hear It... SING it... Play It . It's not like a guitar or other fretted string instrunent(piano included) where you meticulously tune then push then key or string between the frets. It is more like singing. It's more of a "hear it" thing. Ed

Agreed.
I can't play worth the crap by "feel". Particularly when sight reading, I'm singing/thinking in my head like crazy so that I know what the next sound is supposed to be. But also, it's fairly challenging to play high pitches with a lot of tubing when the tubing length is not correct, because the slots are narrow, B-flat tubas have an awful lot of tubing, and big B-flat tubas have an awful lot of big tubing. My embouchure vibration control is not anywhere close to perfect. I know that from playing on the mouthpiece with my finger covering most of the end of it - to imitate it resistance of a tuba, but I can usually come within a few cents of the correct frequency when really concentrating, and when the tubing is set for 20 cents off of the correct frequency, the tuba and I are in for a fight - particularly in the higher range.

I agree with my trumpet player friend: If a pitch on a brass instrument isn't tuned anywhere close to right - and player is dead set on beginning the pitch in tune particularly if it's a higher pitch on that instrument), they're asking for trouble...or - at the very least - a challenge.