Bass trombone - is beauty possible?

[donn]

[ Just to rescue this topic from a thoroughly wrong thread, and hopefully vice versa. ]

Is the bass trombone a listenable musical instrument, or a specialty noise-maker? Slide chainsaw?

It isn't all that different, physically, from a tenor trombone, is it? I've seen the two categories confused. Maybe just attracts the player, and composer, whose musical ambitions don't run to the lyrical so much?

The example I have at hand - Devil's Waltz Martin Schippers & Tomer Maschkowski bass trombone duet - some of those noises appear, but also some sweet enough sounds.

Or how about Buddy Rich - Wave (Jobim) - Bass Trombone Solo (apparently Bill Reichenbach.) And of course George Roberts, as already mentioned.

[bloke]

Just as with the tuba, there are a few musicians who also play the bass trombone...

...a few...(LOL...and if some of y'all would like to assume that you're one o' them, do so, if it makes you feel better. )

me...??

Of course, I'm the consummate musician.

==================================================================

I'll mention one guy (who - these days - mostly just shows up to play 3rd in the Richmond (VA) Symphony, but is a bass trombone rock star (but makes most of his dough doing computer stuff). I'd wager most people have NO idea how great a player/musician he is, because he doesn't self-promote at all...

Scott Cochran...
And this picture is probably a decade old, and notice that they had to look through their pictures, because he obviously didn't send the webmaster a "portrait". Also, I believe he's another "vintage Conn"-vert, who has been playing (not the Edwards in the picture, but) an ancient 70H, lately.

[donn]

I think some trombone enthusiasts see a kind of split between the "vintage Conn" vs. "tuba on a stick" - don't know what models the latter would apply to, but of course it isn't the compliment it might seem to be to us. Arrangers of course don't care, and their tendency to write parts in the tuba range makes 2 valves a "no brainer" for the average player. I have the impression that many bass trombonists sing the praise of the old Conns and own a 72H or similar - but it lives in the closet.

[Three Valves]

I wanted to like Strippers and The Polish Guy but....

The Wave.

[bloke]

sidebar re: Conn bass trombones

Their OLD model numbers were a bit confusing.

70H trombones were early, and weren't all the same but the LATER ones (later 30's to mid 50's - arguably the sought-after ones) of those featured pretty large bell throats/red brass bells (and mostly: tuning - only - in the playing slide).

71H/72H/73H were later, and featured smaller-throat (and yellow brass) bells. ' good instruments...different from 70H's.
71H - one rotor, and same F "wrap" as 73H and 60H/62H
73H - two rotors DEPENDENT
72H - one rotor, and same "wrap" as 78H and 88H tenor "wrap".

The 60H/62H (one rotor/two rotors) were sort of attempts to recreate the 70H (larger bell throat / red brass bells).

The 60/62/71/72/73H trombones (listed above) were produced from the later 60's into the early 70's.

Today, the 110H and 112H (sort of) have the 71H/72H/73H pedigree, whereas the

62Hx (though they now have tuning slides in their bell sections) sort of feature bell contours more like 70H and "vintage" 61H/62H instruments.

Even more confusion:
> Conn recycled model numbers, so some really old models with these same numbers weren't even bass trombones.
re: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnTrbHFull.html
> I make mistakes and am just plain wrong, a lot.

[MikeS]

This is, of course, just my opinion, but I always find Ben van Dijk worth a listen…



As for Bloke’s comment about musicians who happen to play certain instruments, he’s not too shabby a guitar player either.



There is a story I was told about Reginall Kell. He was at a party once and he was introduced as being a member of the London Symphony.
Someone asked him, “What do you play?”
He replied, “I play music on the clarinet.”

[bloke]

That instrument looks like a recreation/tip-of-the-hat to the Reynolds bass trombone.

[jtm]

...
There is a story I was told about Reginall Kell. He was at a party once and he was introduced as being a member of the London Symphony.
Someone asked him, “What do you play?”
He replied, “I play music on the clarinet.”

Took me a moment to guess that he was not a famous bass trombone player (who plays non-music on the bass trombone).

[Mark]

I was at the 2018 Pokorny Seminar and Jim Markey's recital was incredible.

[bone-a-phone]

I probably started following the wrong path on the Bobo post, but I thought I brought it back by asking if the man himself played bass bone at all.

Anyway, thanks for making a separate thread for this.

To be clear, I'm a tenor trombonist pulled into playing bass trombone, and then pulled into tuba by trying to avoid the bass trombone. I play in a trombone quartet, and the better quartet music has real bass trombone parts. We used to take turns sucking on the bass part, until I finally got sick of us sucking, and decided to try to learn the bass trombone myself. It's a different instrument, involved in a part of the range the rest of us use for effect. It looks the same, but it's a different animal. Like Gollum and Smeagol. Anyway, I keep trying to come up with ways to avoid the bass trombone, but I keep digging myself in further and further away from the tenor.

I play tenor in brass quintet, but I had to start a new group to be able to do that. In this area there are few bass trombonists, so whenever there is a call for one, they say "Oh, Bone-a-phone has a bass trombone, call him".

The bass trombone takes too much air to be melodic, or to use really musical phrases. George Roberts used smaller equipment (1.5G and a single valve horn). A lot of young players get enticed by the largest equipment they can find, I guess in some over compensation quest. Anyway, the big equipment sounds like a kazoo up high, and sucks the life out of you down low. There is bass bone music that is fun to play, but I've never played a bass bone that was fun.

I own a Kanstul 1662i (double valve, typical bass bone dimensions), but mostly I try to get away with a smaller horn (Holton 159, 547/562 dual bore, 9" bell, single valve). Bass players don't believe in small or even medium equipment. Everything has to be oversized. I take some heat for playing a "tweener" as a bass, but when they have to close their eyes, they can't tell the difference between my small horn and my big one.

I try to attend the Army trombone workshop. And when I'm there, I love listening to the college trombone choirs. Some directors get it and some don't. Some put the bass trombones in the middle of the group, facing the audience. And the ones who get it put the bass bones on the ends facing perpendicular to the audience. Frontal assault. It's hard to get those people to approach the instrument musically. There's so much technically that they can't do, but they can hammer tongue the hell out of anything you might set in front of them. As obnoxious as trumpet players but not as well groomed or bathed.

In the hands of most college kids, bass trombone is a healthy redirection of testosterone for the athletically disinclined. Mostly long low notes with big attacks on the front end. Little finesse. There is a lot of overcompensation among bass trombone players. Bass trombone players are fond of saying the bass trombone has the same range as the tuba, which of course it does not. In reality, it has the same range as the tenor trombone, except for the extra third or whatever that the second valve gives you. Among "trombone society", bass trombone is an excuse for not playing high notes, in the same way that showing up with a trombone with no valves is an excuse for not playing low parts. Which is to say that a tenor with an f valve is the kind of guy with no hangups.

Even on the trombone forum, you see this unhealthy fascination with bass trombone. Every high school wannabe just wants a bass trombone for some (other-than-musical) reason. I've seen college kids who can't make it on tenor get shunted to bass. Even Brian Hecht, formerly of the Atlanta Symphony admitted on stage at ATW that his college trombone teacher saw that he had no future on tenor, and suggested he play bass. Of course he is super successful on bass.

There are a few guys who really do the bass bone proud. Obviously George Roberts is the name that comes to mind with musical bass trombone playing that you can listen to, but there are a lot of others like Ben van Dijk (on the opposite end of the equipment spectrum) and the list goes on. But the guy I want to put out there as a real musician who just happens to play bass trombone is Max Seigel. https://weathervest.com/max-seigel

When I play bass, I try to channel that part of Max Seigel's playing that is conversational and melodic. Not that I'm ever successful, but that's what I'm trying to do. That's the sound in my head. Max plays like the thing is an extension of his voice. He can play low and loud, but generally refrains. It's always tasteful and something you want to hear what he's gonna do next. I think it takes more than just practice to get to that point. You have to swim against the prevailing current a lot. You go away knowing that primarily Max is an outstanding musician, and that just by bad luck he got stuck with the bass trombone.

[donn]

Well, it's great that you've found the instrument that really fits you!

I'm getting the impression that whatever flawed characters may be attracted to the instrument, the root of the problem is that bands want a big blat out of them. Players learn to do the job, and get the instrument (and mouthpiece) for the job. To me, that whole scene is kind of weird, so it's sad that it exercises such an influence.

[bloke]

A really fine trombonist friend of mine pointed out that all the arm movement uses up a considerable percentage of the oxygen that the lungs take in. It's not just that the body needs air (mostly nitrogen) to blow out of an instrument, but it needs oxygen for the brain and the muscles to function. They can play longer easier phrases on euphonium with less work, because their arm is not frantically moving around consuming oxygen that they inhaled.

Building that cimbasso, I not only got really lucky in that it plays well, but it led to some new types of experiences blending with a trombone section, which - I'm sure - contributes to my ability to blend with a trombone section while playing the tuba. The tuba sounds different, and there's not so much pressure and urgency to blend with trombones due to that factor, but the trombone sounding instrument emphasizes that urgency and importance.

I realize this is also a sidebar to the main topic, but maybe these comments are worthy of consideration...??

[Breavdah]

Trumpets starting to get a little sizzle
Conductor give the hand.
Tuba uses more than one taste bud to tongue a note
Conductor gives the hand
Tenor trombone becomes barely audible over the french horns.
Conductor gives the hand
Bass trombone sounds like chainsaw
Conductor waves little circles "more, more!"

[bone-a-phone]

When I play small bore trombone, I exhale at the end of phrases. When I play 525 bore I can comfortably play long phrases from Rochut. When I play 547 bore I start paying more attention to using air efficiently. When I play 562, I hyperventilate taking in enough air to push through the instrument. The air the bigger instruments require is a lot more.

[bloke]

We're not arguing, but I just want to make sure that you notice the words I used:

Air is mostly >>nitrogen<<.

An instrument with a larger mouthpiece throat and a larger bore might possibly need more of that "mostly nitrogen" gas to make it through a phrase of a given length and amount of decibels, but the arm muscles that a trombone player uses need the >>oxygen<< out of that air to continuously resupply the blood with oxygen in order for those arm muscles to continue to function as a trombone player demands - certainly when they are playing rigorous passages.

Again, we are not arguing, but I'm talking about the little part of the air that the human body uses to allow muscles to function - >>oxygen<<.

Sitting still and playing a large mouthpiece with a large throat and blowing into a large bore >>euphonium<< which often features a larger bore than a bass trombone - is far less demanding of the >>oxygen<< in the blood than bass trombone playing, which often involves a slightly smaller bore size then many euphoniums, along with a pretty much similar mouthpiece.

In summary, playing identical "busy" passages on a bass trombone and a euphonium, the body is going to demand more >>oxygen<< - out of the mostly-nitrogen air that is breathed in - to play the trombone.

==============

Actually, typing all that crap that I just typed above, it made me wonder about an experiment - whereby a trombonist (playing extensive rigorous passages) was fed oxygen through one of those little things (whereby a tube sit just outside their nostrils/mouth), and compare that experience to playing the same extensive rigorous passages without breathing in that extra oxygen.

Most all of us know about a disgraced bicycling hero and how he won his races.

[Bob Kolada]

I'm a valve guy at heart but played bass trombone for a long time, really loved playing it and got a lot of positive comments on my sound. I just can't physically play it anymore, my shoulders are too bad. I had a small bore Eb cimbasso built as a replacement but have basically stopped playing altogether.
I've had a Getzen 1062 for over 15 years, great playing horn. The mp's I ended up on were a Yamaha 60B (shallow, smaller than a Schilke 60, German style mp) for jazz and rock, and a Josef Killer KBP 2C for brass quintet and brass choir. I played a Schilke 60 for years and this is a dramatic important- comfortable rim, fantastic sound and very easy to play. I use it in my Eb thing now though I think I should go a bit bigger there.

I owned a Kanstul contrabass trombone for about a year. It was a hoot but I didn't play it as much as I thought so it went in the purge along with my bass and contrabass trumpets and my 4 front valve Conn Eb Giant. When I played it in a big open room, wow! I played a trombone choir bottom part that had driving double pedal Bb's and Ab's once on bass, I made it work with false notes but that contra sure would have been helpful.

[jtm]

An ensemble I don't play in has a bass trombone player who reportedly is always too loud. At a recent group discussion of ways to improve the ensemble sound, this player said, “Because I know my part so well, when I’m in these rehearsals, I really try to listen and fit into the ensemble.”

[bloke]

I suspect overplayed bass trombones have been encouraged by a combination of popular music over the last half century being mixed bass heavy, along with the development of bass guitar round wound strings - as well as the electronic sounds which imitate the sound of those strings.

[donn]

Or it could be that everyone is inspired by the baritone saxophone.

[bloke]

This is really "out there" on the fringe - as far as a topical post is concerned, but it occurs to me that the brass band English baritones used to be half inch bore and 8-in bell. Now, they are about the same bore size as a large bore tenor, and feature 9-in bells or even larger...

... so if someone stuck a large bore tenor slide onto a bass trombone bell section, how different should they expect that to sound from a modern brass band baritone?