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eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:56 am
by arpthark
Listed at €6500, looks like international shipping a possibility
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204243705452?m ... media=COPY
Based on the engraving and ball-and-socket linkage I would've figured this one would have the B&S cloisonné main tuning slide brace, but it is absent. I guess it's from very slightly post-unification.
edit: this is a PT-3, not a 6.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-6 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:34 am
by bort2.0
Pretty tuba and great condition... but that's a lot of $ for a PT-3.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:14 am
by arpthark
Thanks, edited. PT-6 is the 3098. It looked larger in the photos, especially if you have it in your head that it's already a PT-6...
Yeah, that's way overpriced.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:53 am
by bort2.0
Well, it's an interesting question. How do you price something that's not very desirable but in perfect condition?
I think people often want to try for a high price, because a tuba in a perfect condition seems like it should command a higher price. But then those rarely sell unless somebody is specifically looking for that exact tuba and that condition. However, a much lower price such as a well-worn instrument that is not in perfect condition would sell very quickly, and seem like a missed opportunity to ask for a little bit more.
I don't know what the right answer is. But I think pricing things to sell in a reasonable amount of time is necessary for almost every seller.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:05 am
by arpthark
Good point. So often on the private sale market you see little 3/4 grunt-o-phones in very nice, shiny shape and priced about $2,000 too high for the average consumer (outside of school programs) to consider.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:29 pm
by bloke
Probably one of the last tubas on my list of dream tubas (actually not on the list at all) would be this model, but in the last 2 years, the value of dollar has receded by a tremendous amount. $6,000 may be just as difficult for an American to come by as it was prior to January 2021, but it only buys a fraction of what it formerly bought.
If anyone doesn't understand this already, inflation is always purposefully top down created, and is a form of taxation. Further, the primary purpose of taxation is not to fund essential government services, but to confiscate wealth from individuals.
Today, I just sold an old Cerveny 681. It's shiny, but hasn't been treated very nicely and I'm going to have to work on it. It doesn't include any case or bag, and I was thinking about selling it for $1500 or maybe even $1,300, but then I remembered what has happened to money, told the interested person that it was $2,000, and they bought it.
(I'm remembering purchasing a new Miraphone C as a young adult for $1,400.)
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:51 pm
by arpthark
I really like the little old rotary PTs, but that screaming-sharp third partial was always a bear to deal with and I never ultimately owned one myself. My private lesson teacher in high school had one.
I did have a PT-20P, which was a redesign/bigger bell version of the PT-4, and it featured that tendency to a lesser degree (10-15c #).
"Sagging" that G down to pitch became an ingrained habit, and now that I have a similar type of piston valve tuba that doesn't do that, I find myself unconsciously sagging that G flat if I am not thinking.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:35 pm
by bloke
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 12:51 pm
I really like the little old rotary PTs, but that screaming-sharp third partial was always a bear to deal with and I never ultimately owned one myself. My private lesson teacher in high school had one.
I did have a PT-20P, which was a redesign/bigger bell version of the PT-4, and it featured that tendency to a lesser degree (10-15c #).
"Sagging" that G down to pitch became an ingrained habit, and now that I have a similar type of piston valve tuba that doesn't do that, I find myself unconsciously sagging that G flat if I am not thinking.
...yeah... I'm an intonation a-hole, and that's probably from (first and quite a few years earlier) being a working guitar
and bass player. In the past, I dealt with some really difficult tubas, but I guess I now feel like (whether or not I do) I deserve better, and - as most everyone here knows - easily workable intonation is at the top of my list.
The same partial that you mention is crazy sharp on the majority of models of F tubas, and I just won't have any part of that.
Hell...The Miraphone model 98 is known for offering incredibly good intonation to the player, but look at all the stuff I'm doing to - I guess - "fine tune" it.
Also, I can think back to dozens and dozens and dozens of tubas at really good prices that I have passed up buying to flip, because I didn't like them myself.. and that's really a bad reason to not buy something to resell, because the seller isn't going to be the one who keeps it and uses it.
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:43 am
by Mary Ann
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:31 am
by bort2.0
In the description:
Want buy cheaper??? Look on ebay.de and send me offer
What the heck does that mean?!
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:47 am
by bort2.0
If I had the money, I'd be very interested in this.
I played one of these throughout college and thought it worked great for just about everything. I *believe* this was developed as B&S's answer to the Cerveny Piggy. So for all those who dislike the unavailability of Piggies... might be worth a look, if it's a legit posting.
I chatted with Bob Tucci about this model a few years ago (because I almost bought one back then), and he confirmed a few things that I had believed to be true:
* Same valve section as the PT10/12
* Same bell as the PT10/12 as well
* The rest was new/handmade to make it into a CC tuba
* The model was developed because B&S needed to start making CC tubas for the American market... so they used a lot of what they had and filled in the gaps.
* Also available as the PT-3P (I've only ever seen a few of these, and none in person)
* The "Symphonic Model" was similar, but a little larger and used the same bell as the 3103 BBb tuba
These tubas were made for a good while, and I think in the mid-80s-ish they were probably at their peak (to compete against the Miraphones, Cervenys, etc...)
The PT-3 was eventually replaced with the PT-4, which was a bit larger all around. And the PT-4 was short-lived, because some components of the design made it really difficult to manufacture. So they kind of scrubbed both the 3 and the 4 and reimagined it as the PT-20, which is (I think?) still currently available. I like the PT-20 a lot as well, and it's a nice tuba to play. But I also think it's a tuba that can suffer from a choked/pinched low range, and get to that really oinky, stinky, gross kind of sound when pushed more than Forte. Hard to describe... just think that as far as tubas and tuba players go these days, there's a tendency to want to blow air as hard as possible and expect the tuba to take it and be fine with it. As opposed to the good ol' rotary tubas where you need to have a bit more nuance and learn what the tuba needs to make it go.
Ramble ramble ramble... I'm a big fan of the many B&S CC tubas I've owned and played over the years.
For me, it's more about describing the differences in models than what makes one better than the other. Otherwise, it just gets ridiculous, like asking "which Porsche do you hate the most, and why?
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:23 pm
by Mary Ann
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:31 am
In the description:
Want buy cheaper??? Look on ebay.de and send me offer
What the heck does that mean?!
It means this, apparently:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/204243705452?ha ... SwjoRkZjLX
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:40 pm
by TheBerlinerTuba
A bit more history:
The 4/4 B&S C-Tuba was initially designed sometime in the late 1960s by engineers and craftsmen along with Dietrich Unkrodt, tubist of the Berliner Komische Oper. Many professonal tubists of the GDR used this model and it was far more common in orchestra than any BBb model especially here in Berlin.
The idea that BBb for orchestra was something uniquely german was created in the 1970s in west germany as job protection and has little evidence rooted in german orchestral history. So in the GDR you would often see C-Tubas in orchestra. Military bands on the other hand were mostly F and BBb.
The early versions were basically cut down model 101 BBb tubas and shared most of the parts from said model including the 19mm valve blocks and 45 degree angled 1st and 4th valves and the 101 bell.
Into the 70s it was further developed with more conical valve blocks (19-20-21) and different doglegs(tube after the tuning slide) and eventually vertical 1st and 4th valves(along with 5th valves), basically taking the ideas from the Symphonie F-Tuba but in C-Tuba form. At some point, Bob got involved with the factory in the 70s and it became clear that there was profit to be made from sales to the larger USA market and the rest is history.
After the german reunification, the model was further developed with first a larger bell flair(PT4) and finally a complete resign (PT20) to solve the famous sharp 3rd partial. Just to add, I've heard stories from colleagues in Denmark and Sweden about a C-Tuba with a smaller F-Tuba like bell, but still have not seen in person. The description of these horns was rather scathing...and it seemed like they were one off prototypes rather than a production model.
I also seem to recall the PT20 has a different bell shape than the PT3 and perhaps that's what Bob is referring to.
Bob, would you like to expand on this?
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:47 am
If I had the money, I'd be very interested in this.
I played one of these throughout college and thought it worked great for just about everything. I *believe* this was developed as B&S's answer to the Cerveny Piggy. So for all those who dislike the unavailability of Piggies... might be worth a look, if it's a legit posting.
I chatted with Bob Tucci about this model a few years ago (because I almost bought one back then), and he confirmed a few things that I had believed to be true:
* Same valve section as the PT10/12
* Same bell as the PT10/12 as well
* The rest was new/handmade to make it into a CC tuba
* The model was developed because B&S needed to start making CC tubas for the American market... so they used a lot of what they had and filled in the gaps.
* Also available as the PT-3P (I've only ever seen a few of these, and none in person)
* The "Symphonic Model" was similar, but a little larger and used the same bell as the 3103 BBb tuba
These tubas were made for a good while, and I think in the mid-80s-ish they were probably at their peak (to compete against the Miraphones, Cervenys, etc...)
The PT-3 was eventually replaced with the PT-4, which was a bit larger all around. And the PT-4 was short-lived, because some components of the design made it really difficult to manufacture. So they kind of scrubbed both the 3 and the 4 and reimagined it as the PT-20, which is (I think?) still currently available. I like the PT-20 a lot as well, and it's a nice tuba to play. But I also think it's a tuba that can suffer from a choked/pinched low range, and get to that really oinky, stinky, gross kind of sound when pushed more than Forte. Hard to describe... just think that as far as tubas and tuba players go these days, there's a tendency to want to blow air as hard as possible and expect the tuba to take it and be fine with it. As opposed to the good ol' rotary tubas where you need to have a bit more nuance and learn what the tuba needs to make it go.
Ramble ramble ramble... I'm a big fan of the many B&S CC tubas I've owned and played over the years.
For me, it's more about describing the differences in models than what makes one better than the other. Otherwise, it just gets ridiculous, like asking "which Porsche do you hate the most, and why?
Re: eBay: B&S 3097 PT-3 CC (Germany)
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:44 pm
by TheBerlinerTuba
You can also date this tuba to post german unification based on the valves all turning in the same direction.
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 7:56 am
Listed at €6500, looks like international shipping a possibility
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204243705452?m ... media=COPY
Based on the engraving and ball-and-socket linkage I would've figured this one would have the B&S cloisonné main tuning slide brace, but it is absent. I guess it's from very slightly post-unification.
edit: this is a PT-3, not a 6.
