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Price seems optimistic, but a nice looking horn.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125782082958

I would be pendantic and say it's a Conn, not a King, but they are basically the same thing at this point.

Oops, I guess I was pedantic anyway.

Eastman 632 might be a better deal. I recall Matt Walters said he fixed things Conn changed about his design of the 5XJ on the 632.

arpthark wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:49 am I would be pendantic and say it's a Conn, not a King, but they are basically the same thing at this point.

Oops, I guess I was pedantic anyway.

Mental error. I see that profile and I think King. Fixed it.

hrender wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:00 am Mental error. I see that profile and I think King. Fixed it.

The model should really be "King 2341 cut to C and goofed with."

The Eastman is indeed a marked improvement in very many ways.

Thanks as always for posting all these interesting items.

What is rare about this tuba, besides not being in production anymore?

I always thought the 54J was the rarest of the bunch. Or the satin brass versions...

The Kings came along after the 52,54 56J Conns. Chhris Olka had sent me a picture of the Conn prototype, which I still have, and I called Matt to inquire as to why they didn't do that short bell treatment to the detachable Kings that were still in production. He told me there weren't any plans for that at that time. Then, it could've been a year or so later I saw the Bb Kings on Dillon's website and immdeiately called to order one. That was 2001, and it's been my main horn ever since. I got the frosted silver finish and having played several in different finishes, this is a winner. And big thanks to Matt for picking it out for me. Ed

edfirth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:27 am The Kings came along after the 52,54 56J Conns. Chhris Olka had sent me a picture of the Conn prototype, which I still have, and I called Matt to inquire as to why they didn't do that short bell treatment to the detachable Kings that were still in production. He told me there weren't any plans for that at that time. Then, it could've been a year or so later I saw the Bb Kings on Dillon's website and immdeiately called to order one. That was 2001, and it's been my main horn ever since. I got the frosted silver finish and having played several in different finishes, this is a winner. And big thanks to Matt for picking it out for me. Ed

That is interesting. I always assumed the Conn 5xJ series came after the new model King.

arpthark wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:13 amThat is interesting. I always assumed the Conn 5xJ series came after the new model King.

Here’s the development timeline the best I can remember…

@Matt Walters started tinkering with the jumbo Eb bell and bow mated to the 2341 body sometime in the mid 1990s. IIRC, his first big success was a York Eb bell and bow mated to a 2341 with 4 valves (no fifth) that he kept (and might still have) as the benchmark.

He iterated on this a bit with Buescher, Conn, etc bells and bows along with other valve sets. For instance, I played a CC he built that had a 5 valve set with the pistons being short action made up from a sousaphone cluster. Given my chops were peak at that time (1998?) and the facility of that horn, I was in love. It was like $9000 at the time. I think the 2155 was out and the 2000 was just hitting the streets when I played that.

Anyhow, this iterated a bit more and Matt was building a lot from Conn Eb and King Bb parts and finding a lot of success with that recipe. At some point, Fred Powell and Steve Dillon got together and convinced UMI to do this since UMI still had all the tooling and the piston CC market was pretty “hot” at the time. UMI should have been able to build these and undercut European makers by a healthy margin.

The 52/54/56J suffered from some inconsistent production quality issues as well as having a pretty silly fourth valve layout. Most of these horns are pretty decent players from all accounts once production problems are addressed. But there were still some issues, maybe the open G at the bottom of the staff (?), that lingered on because UMI didn’t take Matt’s advice on altering the dogleg coming off the main tuning slide to his specs.

So it was left to Eastman to copy Matt’s formula, and apparently they did so without issue, hence the 4/4 Eastman CCs being pretty solid tubas. There are also a few of the Matt-built versions of the Conn/King formula out there that are really nice. I have one that was built in 2005.

The Sam Gnagey recipe is very similar as well. He might’ve been ahead of this by a couple of years?

A lot of this was the fallout of eBay being a clearinghouse of antique 3V jumbo Eb tubas for $100-$300 a piece in the late 1990s along with the ease of finding cheap King BBb tubas that were beat up and/or had the unwanted bell front (or even worse were a leftover body because someone just wanted the upright bell) also on eBay or elsewhere.

These jumbo/monster Eb bottom bows had a small end and radius/width almost identical to the small end of the King 2341/1241 bottom bows, so most of that work was done. The shorter bell stack cut out about half of the length needed to convert to a CC and the main tuning slide and ferrules on the bottom of the 2341 were really long, so a decent bit of pipe (almost the remainder needed) could be cut from there.

Probably one of the best versions of a happy accident that could exist in the history of tuba design.

Also…

https://www.brasshistory.net/UMI%20History.pdf

The 5xJ was nascent while UMI was being merged into Steinway and then Steinway cutting costs. Seeing as how Benge got axed in 2005 (once a fine maker of brass instruments with unique designs and features), not surprising if a CC tuba that sold maybe in the hundreds per year at its peak would be passed on for the sake of keeping the 2341 which vis a vis was now cheaper to manufacture with the one piece bell and likely sells in the thousands per year.

The real surprise is that the 5J continued on…

edfirth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:27 am The Kings came along after the 52,54 56J Conns. Chhris Olka had sent me a picture of the Conn prototype, which I still have, and I called Matt to inquire as to why they didn't do that short bell treatment to the detachable Kings that were still in production. He told me there weren't any plans for that at that time. Then, it could've been a year or so later I saw the Bb Kings on Dillon's website and immdeiately called to order one. That was 2001, and it's been my main horn ever since. I got the frosted silver finish and having played several in different finishes, this is a winner. And big thanks to Matt for picking it out for me. Ed

Not to Argue, but when I was in Eastlake in 1999, they had the prototypes for what would become the 56J , (not yet named Conn, and the plan was for it to be in the king lineup) and the new 2341. They asked my opinions for both horns.

LeMark wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:10 am

edfirth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:27 am The Kings came along after the 52,54 56J Conns. Chhris Olka had sent me a picture of the Conn prototype, which I still have, and I called Matt to inquire as to why they didn't do that short bell treatment to the detachable Kings that were still in production. He told me there weren't any plans for that at that time. Then, it could've been a year or so later I saw the Bb Kings on Dillon's website and immdeiately called to order one. That was 2001, and it's been my main horn ever since. I got the frosted silver finish and having played several in different finishes, this is a winner. And big thanks to Matt for picking it out for me. Ed

Not to Argue, but when I was in Eastlake in 1999, they had the prototypes for what would become the 56J , (not yet named Conn, and the plan was for it to be in the king lineup) and the new 2341. They asked my opinions for both horns.

This did all evolve over a short period of time. I had a student buy a brand new 2-piece 2341 in 1999 at a cheap price ($3k ish) from Dillon Music. Maybe they were clearing existing inventory of parts off the shop floor before production started? Possibly also helping dealers move around inventory so that the new design could launch in a somewhat coordinated fashion?

Mark, Thinking back, Chris sent me that picture of the prototype in 1998.It finally registered in my mind time line wise because we were living in a seedy apartment (which I did and always will refer to as "the dumpster") after selling our house and waiting for the new one to be built which could only be 1998. Which was when I called Matt so your timeline works with what I remember. He did tell me when I ordered the new King that it had been put together by someone other than him, whose name I've forgotten. The Kings were probably much easier to get up and running since they are basically a tuning slide tweaked 1241(2341) with a short bell. The first batch or so were sharp due to the loss of length in the bell. Mine was in the first batch with longer ferruls in the back that added the correct length. That's all I got. Best, Ed

Hmmm...I'm not interested in buying it, but it's interesting that this horn is in Orlando. Wonder who's selling it? Great looking horn, though.

hrender wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:43 am Price seems optimistic....

But it comes with a mouthpiece!

20,000 eggs...

Relisted with a lower BIN and a starting bid that, in my opinion, approaches the actual selling price of one of these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125835370665?m ... media=COPY

I never dis-liked these (52/54/56).

I raised my eyebrows at those who tore off their 5th rotors.

Selmer USA/the King factory in Eastlake (rather than casting or BUYING an appropriate-sized cork plate) used one that was sized to fit a trombone F-attachment.

That made the 5th lever (very short stroke) FEEL (read: tactile) funny, and (my belief is that) some people associated "short thumb stroke" with "tight/stuffy" (which - to me - it was not...at least no more than should be expected out of the double-low range of a mostly 11/16" bore tuba).

$5K - the opening bid (in worthless 2023 USD) - is a great price, based on condition/playability.
Am I going to buy this? nope...I don't need it and the (undeserved) reputation of these would define it as hard to flip for much more.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:00 pm What is rare about this tuba, besides not being in production anymore?

I always thought the 54J was the rarest of the bunch. Or the satin brass versions...

I thought "rare" or "vintage" in the context of ebay meant:

"I think this old stuff is worth a lot of money and you should too because reasons"