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A year or so ago, I was made aware of something regarding a fairly high profile teacher who recruited many students.

I was told by a former colleague that this teacher taught all their tuba/baritone students to legato tongue (as do trombonists - rather than slur). I tend to suspect that this is due to that teacher themselves not being able to slur very well...(??) I suppose it's okay for those rare students that just can't seem to slur, but I would tend to question automatically teaching it as the way to play legato for every student. (Actually, the former colleague thought it was a good idea, so I would expect some others to defend it as well.)

Some may or may not agree with the tack/strategy just described above, and anyone is welcome to defend it, obviously...

... I would prefer to vastly widen the thread out (to more than just this one thing and this one person used as an example, and a way to start the thread) to >> all sorts of things that are taught that possibly shouldn't be <<, and maybe other people (via subsequent posts) coming to the defense of those things.

If this topic is of interest to anyone for discussion, let's please not mention any names nor say other things that would give away identities.

I know a large number of band directors who happen to be tuba players who teach that as well. They all happen to have gone to the same small university in the 90’s where the low brass professor happened to be a trombone player and taught them all articulation as if they played trombone. My first lessons teachers was one of these directors and it took me an embarrassingly long time to learn to slur properly once I went to college. But hey, my legato tonguing was always good!

When I am playing in the orchestra with the trombones (one me, three of them) I tend to articulate exactly as they do when I can, though that is not my default setting, so to speak. I will sometimes discuss it with them for the sake of clarity.

However, when it really needs to sound like a naturally slurred line in the bones they will ask me to slur "correctly" to help camouflage their "fake slurs".

It is a bit of cooperative planning to get good results. And we really do not talk about it, per se, but just make quick comments to each other, or just do it by listening and reacting during rehearsals.

When I play with *anyone* other than the trombones I articulate and slur normally.

Along those lines, I will have a student legato tongue an excerpt if my experience tells me it needs to be done that way, but ONLY IF IT IS FOR A PERFORMANCE. If it is for an audition I have them slur normally. So yeah, faking slurs like a trombonist has its uses, but they are pretty limited. I would never teach some kid to do this for everything, which I think is a fairly half-baked idea. It is an effect, not a norm.

As a bit of explanatory background: my first teacher was a bass trombonist and Emory Remmington student at Eastman in the 1950s, and he gave me the idea to incorporate trombone style articulation when playing with trombones only, and with regular style when all the brass are playing. He was quite specific about where I should consider using a legato tongue and where to slur.

Sounds risky.

Seems like the better tactic is constant and controlled air with precision fingers for good slurs.

I’m lucky in that when I was an undergrad I had the chance to play with two of the current “big names” out there in the tuba world on a weekly if not daily basis. One of the concepts I got from them was shaping notes (low brass professor was a trombonist) and when it came to slurs, using the tongue would’ve been contradictory to what I was learning.

No matter how hard one tries, the note will be shaped by the opening and closing of the oral cavity by the tongue. A slight, albeit very slight
<-note-><-note->
kind of affect will be heard whereas when properly slurring the sound should be
[-note-][-note-]

That way any shaping of the phrase can be done on the whole as opposed to the phrase being a bit “bumpy”.

Related:



https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/201 ... /87245344/

Don't get me started. The best trombone players I know work hard on slurring, and the worst teachers I know never teach it

I went to a small college where the only brass teacher was a trombone guy, though not the one being discussed (it was a college, not a university). However, I was taught to slur through legato markings unless it was not feasible to do so. Sometimes a slur is marked, but if there are repeated notes they should be legato tongued. Important to note that because sometimes composers and arrangers neglect to mark those passages the way they should be marked. But I have to say that my collegiate brass teacher was well versed in pedagogy for ALL brass instruments, because he made it his business to be so. He taught many excellent trumpet, horn, and euphonium players as well as trombone and tuba. I never met any student of his who was not top notch at graduation time.

I think we've stumbled across another topic which is "confusing articulation and phrasing markings in wind music".

Originally, wind articulation markings came from string markings; it's extremely insightful to learn about all the different types of bowed stringed instrument articulations, what they sound like, and what the markings on the music are for those dozens of types of ways that they begin and alter sounds. That having been said, only a few composers and arrangers today think of wind instrument markings in terms of making wind instrument articulation sound like bowed stringed instrument markings, so markings end up being nebulous and questionable.. then there are jazz band markings, and - beyond jazz band markings - there are composers/arrangers/editors who either don't understand markings or over-mark with too many articulation markings (such as with all of the clutter found on the printed version our own RVW tuba concerto).

Widening out Wade's comments, since performers perform (and not composers/arangers/editors) perhaps it should be left up to the performers - just a little bit more than some pieces infer - for them to make more decisions about how to begin and end sounds. Bach didn't clutter up his music with any of that stuff, as an example. I'm not even sure that there were such markings put on music by anyone during that era. I'm not suggesting that the notes are there for performers to just do with them as they wish, but I do believe that some music is over-edited, as far as articulation markings are concerned...

... and and then there are the players who are very anal about every articulation marking written on their music, but obviously have no idea in the world how to phrase music (the subtleties which are a bit too complicated to notate, which those who have no idea how to phrase music can probably identify when they hear it, yet - to them - it's je ne sais quoi... when it shouldn't be. )

Specific to trombone (just as with the tuba), technique continues to advance with the very finest players. I've passed up a few other opportunities to hear really great trombonists play so-called "classical" solo works, but a recent exposure was when I heard Jeremy Wilson play a piece with an orchestra live. I didn't hear anything that sounded like a legato tongue. Everything that was smooth sounded like a extremely well executed slur, and I'm not sure that he didn't actually slur a whole bunch of things somehow, and somehow "working around" the fact that he was using a slide. Those of us who've listened to Frank Fontana play his otherworldly trombone jazz have heard some of the same things I'm talking about as with Jeremy Wilson. Sure, they can use tricks like contrary motion and alternate positions to execute genuine slurs, but those aren't always available.

... not trying to change the subject, but just addressing the sidebar brought up in the previous post...
... and after typing all this crap, surely I've typed something with which someone will vehemently disagree.

With not-particularly-experienced orchestra bass trombonists (when we're tracing the basses' lines, which is more often that one might even imagine), I might whisper (using the word "Lets" - to avoid sounding too bossy)

Let's copy the way the basses sound

ie. articulations / decays, swells...WHATEVER they're doing that's the same as what we have written.

Being closer to the basses than the 1st and 2nd bone players (and thus able to hear the basses with more clarity) the 1st/2nd players (in one orchestra) have become accustomed (with MANY exceptions obviously...as this is NOT some "all the time" sort of thing) to listening DOWN the section for "style" (etc.) when the low brass are playing "supporting/reinforcing" passages.

...If you're lucky (and I'm lucky) your bass section has some damn-fine musicians within.

a little "test" for bass trombonists re: musicality, sensitivity, even sense of pulse, and (to a certain extent) ability to "drive the bus":
Sit and listen to them play their bass lines (with the basses) in "Waltz of the Flowers".



per typical: Most posts (including mine) are OFF TOPIC, and that's fine.

Slurs...

".. I would prefer to vastly widen the thread out (to more than just this one thing and this one person used as an example, and a way to start the thread) to >> all sorts of things that are taught that possibly shouldn't be <<, and maybe other people (via subsequent posts) coming to the defense of those things"

My default thoughts:
You may not learn much (or correct techniques) about high range from someone that can't play high.
You may not learn much (or correct techniques) about low range from someone that can't play low.
You may not learn much (or correct techniques) about slurs from someone that can't slur.
...and so on. And I don't mean someone that can sort of do something. If you desire to solve a playing issue or mystery, find a true master to consult.

Learning/inventing shortcuts, either self-taught or from a so-called teacher can take a lifetime to straighten out. You spend half your life perfecting something stupid only to realize later it will never get you to the goal line. Dreaded shifts, slurring tricks, and embouchure reconfigurations from one note/register to another, all seem to give surprising relief to problems but never take you to the finish line of mastering an instrument. The more I rid myself of these playing cobwebs the happier I am with my playing. And I'm still trying to get over a shift I developed in college 40 years ago. Good luck you shifting shifters!

Not to hurt anyone's feelings or generalize but - music ed majors that never really reach a high level on their major instrument just don't have a full set of tools and understanding once they are out in the field. Most of you that have taught at the college level have seen and heard unbelievable techniques kids learned from their high school band directors. Also makes you wonder who was teaching their brass methods course in college or maybe they just didn't show up on slurring day. haha.

The short of it: a slur is two notes with nothing (no monkey business) in between. Well... that may take some more explaining on a dedicated thread. But really, great slurs are really very simple.

Lesson for the day: https://youtu.be/CxiFMlvY3_8
I have spent some time with this guy's videos. Make sure you watch the "3 compressions" video as well.

TJ

Whenever I suggest that there should be no such thing as a "major instrument" for someone pursuing a secondary ed. instrumental music degree, all it does (every damn time) is piss off some people...

...but to be an almost-expert flute player - YET teach ALL brass/woodwind/percussion and only take a semester class (with twenty others) in "brass", and "percussion" is b.s.

That having been said, this degree is set up (in every single kolij) to be a "pretend" performance degree and - were it not - there wouldn't be enough people pursuing this degree to fill all the band director jobs...YET - if proficiency/understanding/knowledge were spread out much more EVENLY amongst ALL of the school band instruments - we would end up with many more capable band directors (earlier in their years of being band directors).

As I've said before (and again: pissed off people every time), the band director degree COULD (for those who might choose to do so) be accompanied by a performance MINOR (on a single instrument, or "brass" or "double reeds" or "saxophones", etc.)

bloke "Instead of actually teaching future band directors to play all of the various instruments at least to a ninth or tenth grade level proficiency - and with check-offs, future band directors are sent through *watered-down conservatories and - (rather than really learning to play all the instruments - they are required to waste precious time (ok...besides drankin', and smokin' weed) hoofing it over to the "education" and "sociology" (etc.) buildings - to be brainwashed (often: for life ) via a glob of mind-numbing nonsense courses.
_______________________________________
*whereby to be admitted to "upper level" private lessons, a student is required to demonstrate a lower level of achievement/competence that someone applying for entrance into an actual conservatory.

btw...I almost always like Tim's posts.

I was told a high profile player who is now retired taught this, maybe the same person. I could see if someone originally was taught by a trombonist a while back. Trombonists do the “da” or “du” tongue because they can’t get the true slur effect outside of a lip slur.

I’ve taught it to get a specific articulation sound. Articulation should be varied, different colors on a palette to get the sound we want.

It's difficult to talk about playing without talking about oneself, but here goes:
The more I'm paying attention to the music - instead of me paying attention to me playing the music, the more I have no idea what type of mechanics I'm using to start sounds.
I am aware, though, that I start more than just a few sounds by simply blowing air. I have no idea how many other people also do that. I've not encountered many who encourage that as a so-called articulation...

...so - FINALLY, TOPICALLY - Perhaps it is I who embrace ill-advised strategies.

I dont specifically recall the topic of slurring in my lessons but im sure it was there. When i play, i aim for clarity. I push slurs with air pressure from deep down. The best way for me to describe it is with a ho ho ho. I do this because when i hear other people (not paid pros) play, it sounds like mud! I dont want to sound like mud. So i try to properly, but clearly articulate. Ho ho ho may not be proper, but its clean and clear. I play the way i play because of what i hear

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the elephant wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 9:05 am When I am playing in the orchestra with the trombones (one me, three of them) I tend to articulate exactly as they do when I can, though that is not my default setting, so to speak. I will sometimes discuss it with them for the sake of clarity.

However, when it really needs to sound like a naturally slurred line in the bones they will ask me to slur "correctly" to help camouflage their "fake slurs".

This is spot on, in my opinion, but I know bloke's point was about teachers who teach legato tongue as the default rather than slurring, and I have known such teachers. It is important in any ensemble for everyone to articulate consistently with each other, and it was hammered into me to not do things the "easy way".

bloke wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 2:17 pm As I've said before (and again: pissed off people every time), the band director degree COULD (for those who might choose to do so) be accompanied by a performance MINOR (on a single instrument, or "brass" or "double reeds" or "saxophones", etc.)

I got my master's degree in performance not with the intention of performing professionally, but to become the best teacher I could be. I felt it was important to know more than my students, because we all have had that student who is immeasurably more talented than us. That being said, most of my all-state level players in a 33 year career were trumpets, saxophones, flutes, and percussion, which has nothing to do with anything in this thread, other than to say I had to work very hard to learn to teach all the instruments well... except clarinet, my Achilles heel.

I swear I have seen this post before and responded before, to the point where I keep looking at the date.
Observations:
When I hear brass "slurring," it tends to have a bit of wah-wah-wah, and I notice this especially in horn players, who SHOULD be able to slur just like a string player, blowing through the slur without needing any gap in the sound. Being a string player, THAT is the way I slur, and I'm not even sure I could DO the wah-wah thing without working on it. I had never, before just now, heard of "trombone slur tonguing." You learn something every day.

As someone with brass music in print, I found out that brass players, if you put nothing indicating how to play the notes, will ALWAYS separate them, sometimes all the way to staccato. String players will ALWAYS play notes totally legato, even if separate bows, if there is no marking on them saying to separate. So I had to sit down with horn players, have them sight read the music, and figure out how to mark it so that they didn't play everything staccato. These were pro players too, so it was accurate in terms of what came out based on what they saw.

That makes it quite the task to notate music for each because of the opposite tendencies.

I think the tendency to over-notate is a tendency to try to make people play the way they should rather than the way they do, or play better than they can.

I know I've already talked about this, but being shown to move valves slowly as a better way to connect sounds was eye-opening to me, and I promise this came from the top and not only from the top but the top received this tip from the top. Being in a hurry to move from one pitch to the other and trying to time it exactly to the millisecond is not the easy way to connect sounds on a brass instrument. It might work, but it's hard.

An embouchure which continues to vibrate through the valve change is the one that's going to sound more like a voice, and when you hear brass players who warm up by stretching pitches as far as they can in neither direction - working to keep their sound as resonant as it is in the center at either extreme - are the ones who are also the ones who come the closest to imitating the voice in smooth legato playing/slurring/whatever you want to call it.

I'm sure that all of us have experienced music directors singing passages to players that they wanted to be particularly well phrased and particularly legato. Almost always when they sing those phrases to the instrumentalists, they insert quite a bit of portamento. Only string players and trombonists can actually offer that much portamento in their sound, but the rest of us have ways of putting some of that into our sound.

Particularly when I'm continuing to teach myself how to play this huge rotary B flat tuba, "muscling" through slurs and legato passages is not going to do it... but neither is the "wah-wah" faking through them going to work either, at least not to the ears of others.