TubaForum.net

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225570701523

I liked mine but I couldn't play it even close to in tune and needed to fund my 188 purchase.

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 11:48 am I liked mine but I couldn't play it even close to in tune and needed to fund my 188 purchase.

Do you think the big custom valve section has anything to do with that? Curious, because the same file section is on so many instruments and it seems like the smaller the instrument the more problems there are. For example, the 45SLP usually gets a fair number of complaints about the intonation as well.

The new(er) ones are MUCH better. My old one was, well, very old, and was an absolute nightmare. Serial numbers above 3000 are supposedly the better ones. A friend had one when I was in college and it was a VERY in tune horn. It had the newer brace style and less-old bell engraving.

They CAN be good, but you need to check pitch 100%.

THIS one on eBay appears to be an older tuba. I'd steer clear unless you get it for a stupidly low price.

I'd like to know what they changed with the higher serial numbers to fix it, because they CAN be great tubas. Maybe they monkeyed with the lead pipe, some? 45slp pipe? No idea. Anyone else know?

I'm not sure of the one I played, but as much as I wanted to love it, the intonation was unbearable

I wonder how much a 2141 would cost new? Its listed in the catalogue, but not the newest price list.

If I were desiring an Eb tuba, I'd be all over a Yamaha YEB-321. The lack of a 5th valve was not problem at all for me, and it had the best low register of any tuba I've ever played. Perfect for quintet and brass band.

$4,500 seems like a very fair price for a 2141, I think someone will be very happy.

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 1:24 pm I wonder how much a 2141 would cost new? Its listed in the catalogue, but not the newest price list.

If I were desiring an Eb tuba, I'd be all over a Yamaha YEB-321. The lack of a 5th valve was not problem at all for me, and it had the best low register of any tuba I've ever played. Perfect for quintet and brass band.

$4,500 seems like a very fair price for a 2141, I think someone will be very happy.

It's a fair price IF it can play in tune. This one probably can't.

I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

I think there’s a lot of voodoo magic too it. You have to sell a bunch of a model to build consistency (pt-6 or 186), or you have to spend a very long time in development (yamayork ETC.)

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 5:00 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

I think there’s a lot of voodoo magic too it. You have to sell a bunch of a model to build consistency (pt-6 or 186), or you have to spend a very long time in development (yamayork ETC.)

To be clear, I was joking.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

It's slowly moving from voodoo to science. This piece of software allows one to predict characteristics of specific bore lists (bugle shapes); intonation, resonance and response. https://www.artim.at/en/optimizer/

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 5:07 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

It's slowly moving from voodoo to science. This piece of software allows one to predict characteristics of specific bore lists (bugle shapes); intonation, resonance and response. https://www.artim.at/en/optimizer/

That is very interesting!

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

Nah, the problem is that modern tuba players got all snooty about out of tune tubas. There used to be fewer options, harder to obtain, better (and pushier!) endorsements, and let's not forget good old ignorance. If it looked pretty (or not), that was your tuba -- you'll play it and you'll like it! How many tuba players were probably fighting their horns the whole time, either knowing it ("I'm working my ass off over here!"), having adapted to what was necessary ("you have to do it just like this..."), or assumed that everyone was dealing with poor intonation on their instruments. Except the trombone players... But they're kind of weird...

Tuba players and tuba design caught up, and now people don't accept out of tune tubas anymore. Well, most people at least.

I'm not sure if I've owned any tubas that people later on thought were stinkers, but I think I've also played very few tubas that had unworkable intonation problems. And I HATE pulling slides!

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:24 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

Nah, the problem is that modern tuba players got all snooty about out of tune tubas. There used to be fewer options, harder to obtain, better (and pushier!) endorsements, and let's not forget good old ignorance. If it looked pretty (or not), that was your tuba -- you'll play it and you'll like it! How many tuba players were probably fighting their horns the whole time, either knowing it ("I'm working my ass off over here!"), having adapted to what was necessary ("you have to do it just like this..."), or assumed that everyone was dealing with poor intonation on their instruments. Except the trombone players... But they're kind of weird...

Tuba players and tuba design caught up, and now people don't accept out of tune tubas anymore. Well, most people at least.

I'm not sure if I've owned any tubas that people later on thought were stinkers, but I think I've also played very few tubas that had unworkable intonation problems. And I HATE pulling slides!

Is pushing slides okay, though?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:24 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 2:09 pm I've never understood why they don't just make tubas that play in tune. Seems like a no-brainer.

Nah, the problem is that modern tuba players got all snooty about out of tune tubas. There used to be fewer options, harder to obtain, better (and pushier!) endorsements, and let's not forget good old ignorance. If it looked pretty (or not), that was your tuba -- you'll play it and you'll like it! How many tuba players were probably fighting their horns the whole time, either knowing it ("I'm working my ass off over here!"), having adapted to what was necessary ("you have to do it just like this..."), or assumed that everyone was dealing with poor intonation on their instruments. Except the trombone players... But they're kind of weird...

Tuba players and tuba design caught up, and now people don't accept out of tune tubas anymore. Well, most people at least.

I'm not sure if I've owned any tubas that people later on thought were stinkers, but I think I've also played very few tubas that had unworkable intonation problems. And I HATE pulling slides!

THIS.

There's a reason so many people play Pt-6's, 5450's, and Symphonie (and PT) F tubas. They are just in-tune.

There's also a reason that the MW/B&S Eb tubas aren't around anymore. Nobody bought them because they were (probably) too much work to play in tune. The only non-comps that exist anymore are from Willson and Miraphone, both LEAGUES more in tune than the Buffet horns.

We have the technology available now that we shouldn't accept things that are hard to play in tune. Back in the day, they had Alex 163's, which were out of tune, HB's, which were better, but do need slide pulling, and the 2165, which to me is hard to play.

Luckily, the only true dog I've owned was admittedly a MW 2141. I should've done my research before I bought AND not been afraid to walk away.

I really want to like them. Truly. I LOVE the way these big Eb's play. Unfortunately the good ones are held onto, and the dogs come up for sale after a few months. I've seen the same few 2141's pop up over the years.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 6:44 pm Unfortunately the good ones are held onto, and the dogs come up for sale after a few months.

If technology we have today to design in-tune tubas, wasn't used, and the MW 2141 Eb therefore plays out of tune ...

... how did good ones happen?

donn wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 1:21 am ... how did good ones happen?

About 30 years ago when I visited the Melton (MW) factory, I was told that about 3/4 of prototypes ended up shelved because they 'didn't work out', so apparently good ol' trial & error played a big role.

Sure, I get that the technology is a substitute for trial and error, and that must have meant a lot of prototypes. But a 2141 out of the factory is production, not prototype, and presumably each built to the same design. If that design works some of the time, then ... maybe I'm taking too simple a view of the relationship between design and production, but it seems to me that a design can't work some of the time and fail at other times. If there's a failure only some of the time, then it's a production problem, and all the design technology in the world won't make any difference.

To my understanding they “fixed” the newer ones. Serials 3000 and up. But nobody’s clear on what exactly they did. Like I said, my guess would be that there was some weirdness in the leadpipe?

But remember, same story with the 45slp. Some play in tune no problem, and others don’t. Maybe a little bit of luck is involved as well. Or, was it put together better than the rest? Did they end up putting the newer ones into that software to fix the pitch? Who knows.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:50 am Who knows.

Let's get Gerhard in here for some questioning.