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The mystery horn is...

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This absolutely filthy Willson rotary F.

Before you laugh at me, actually... Go ahead and laugh at me.

I REALLY intended to purchase an Eb for brass band use, and had a sale pending until the seller decided he wanted to keep his horn. Then, I happened to come across this. It's SUPER rare, has left hand fifth, was in my budget and in the Midwest. One thing led to another, and I bought it.

The gig bag- The one that I asked about earlier, is a raggedy piece of TRASH. I will delight in throwing it in the trash or burning it in my fire pit. Not even close to worth fixing.

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A comparison with it's piston brother that I still have until next week when it's buyer picks it up. Also, after using literally all my polish. I'll buy more tomorrow. We're getting somewhere.

I'll be taking it to my repairman for a thorough cleaning. It smells musty like the bag it's probably sat in for the last decade I'd guess.

All things considered I got a great deal on it and will update as I play it.

David

If it's "just not for you", you certainly have some nice tradin' fodder - there - to use to get what might actually be for you...(??)

new-to-us tubas are fun !

If you’re happy, we’re happy!

Oooooo...! Congrats... cant wait to see (and hear) it all cleaned up... have fun...

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

I had a 3200 piston F about 10 years ago. Very curious to hear your assessment of the rotary version.

Very nice!

Show us the old trash gig bag though!

Those holes in the paddles are from (now missing) adjustable "saucer" fingerpads. Another over-engineered Willson thing, a little smooth saucer with an off-center screw rod on the bottom, with a bolt to hold it in place. You could adjust it so that it helps meet the contour of your hand better. Nice idea, but I didn't like how it felt. I'll try to find a photo of mine with those attached.

I highly suggest getting Martin Wilk (or whoever else) to cut down the Rotax valves to make them faster, lighter, and more open. It made an enormous difference on my rotary Willson CC.

Congrats!

I'll take bag pics later today.

Yes, the valves will go to Martin. The thumb ring will either be moved or (re)moved. I'm thinking of asking Keith to make some replacement paddles for those holes.

Playability (duh)

This is the epitome of the rotary F tuba. THE best low register of any rotary F including the Firebird.

GREAT pitch.

Thumb ring location sucks.

Left hand fifth is awesome.

More to come.

I promise I'll post the "bag" photos later.

As bort mentioned, yes, valves are heavy. Noticeably heavier than normal rotors. I'll have them cut down eventually. I'm not playing enough to justify more "extra" costs yet, as I just spent like $150 on gas today to get the darn thing.

I keep pegging the thumb ring- Those who have played these horns before, have complained about it. The placement *SUCKS*- That will be an easy fix. It's not actually a brace like MW does. It's just soldered to the slide tube, not the tube+bell. So, easy fix. Not worried. I can't imagine this horn with a right hand fifth valve. THAT would be uncomfortable. Left hand is just fine, but I'd like the paddle placed higher than it is. Because I'm tall. It's probably fine for those of average height/arm length.

Low range is supremely open. Just wow. I expected this. But it's such a weird feeling on a rotary horn. It is likely the only model that has this characteristic. It feels just like the piston version, but with more character. I like both of them.

Each horn has slides that are not easily accessible while playing. This one has two. 2nd and 3rd. The piston version only has the 4th pointing down. I don't have to move them on this horn (on my first day playing it). Third IS movable while playing, but it's just awkward. Same wrap with the Tuono.

The 4th slide on this horn acts as the forearm rest. I dislike this, were the slide actually smooth and easily movable, it would be a problem with how far out I have it. This one is out of alignment. I will probably just leave it due to this characteristic. The piston version does it better with the "hoop," but it lacks the easily movable 4th slide.

Willson's linkage- OVER-engineered, OVER-finnicky, OVER-thought, I'm OVER the clankiness - The piston version has the same thing, BUT only on one valve. Should I keep this horn long-term, I will ditch their linkage and have Dana Hofer do his uniball conversion on it that is just fantastic.

This may sound like a lot of complaints. However, I genuinely like it. I like it better than the piston version, but I'm not sure yet why.

Pitch is *slightly* better on the rotary version. The piston version is FAR from bad, FAR from it. This one just has fewer notes that need manipulation. Actually, I haven't found any besides low G.

The SOUND- Less "small C tuba" sound, more character, as I mentioned. I can't describe it in words well. Play them both, you'll notice a difference.

Ergonomics- piston version wins here, mainly due to the thumb ring. Easily rectified.

Playability- They play about the same. I can pick one up, pretend it's the other one, and it is. Nearly identical. Piston version may have a slight edge on the lowest of the low stuff- Ab, G, Gb, feel slightly better there. Slightly. Did I mention slightly?

THIS particular example seems to have been either neglected or not played for several years. Guy said he "cleaned" it, but it still feels overly gritty.

The tarnish- MY GOD. What a pain in my a** to polish the whole thing. Come on people, get your horns cleaned before you sell them. It's still not completely tarnish-free, but I did my best with what I had.

Really, the cool-factor here is off the charts. How many people own these in the US? I know of one other besides myself, and I believe he bought Joe's several years ago when he offered it for sale. These horns are so rare, and they really are spectacular players. I know most of us like piston things better, and that's probably why the regular 3200 is still out there, but if more people were exposed to this one, it would likely take off. Once they fix that gosh darn thumb ring.

More pix in a few minutes.

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Sort of polished. Notice the wear patch at right hand contact point. Somebody sweat on this thing and left it. Grr.

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Rear view.

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Willson linkages.

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The single worst thumb ring location and angle in existence.

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Waves. Poor dent removal? All over the bottom bow if you're looking or feeling for it. Oh well. Plays great. Cosmetic.

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Trash bag. Notice the pattern on the front- Something had been stored on this case for a L O N G time. Smells musty. Very musty. Bag is labeled "Precieux Brass Bags"- I think it's a Gotz Supersac in disguise. But it's beyond repair. Handles are ripping out, strap is ripped out, zipper doesn't zip fully, music pocket zipper doesn't even work anymore.

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Broken strap.

QUESTION- Miraphone bag for 1291/191- Would that fit this horn? Willson lists dimensions of 37" tall and 17.7" bell. I think that bag fits horns 36.6"/18" bell. It would probably work for this, yes?

Yeah, that bag is over. My PT-7 had an old work out gotz bag... Not that bad, but I know what you're getting at.

Tarnish -- what are you using? I'd suggest using Tarn-X as a first step, to get rid of the tarnish, and then polish it. Straight polishing is a huge chore, and this helps. Straight Tarn-X removed tarnish and leave it unprotected and it re-tarnishea super quickly. Plus, it kinda just looks weird and a bit hazy. But two steps, and it'll look great. All those tiny inner spots though are huge pain regardless. I went crazy on my little Martin to do it all. Bigger horn with 5 valves... I don't envy you.

That 4th slide is kind of ridiculous looking. It's virtually like another bow up there... But I think part of the idea is that with your LH sitting on the side of the horn for the 5th valve, you won't be messing around with the inside middle of the horn there. In fact, I had to stop and think for a minute what you meant by forearm rest.

This was my rotary 3050RZ. Curious what the serial number is on your F?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:53 pm Yeah, that bag is over. My PT-7 had an old work out gotz bag... Not that bad, but I know what you're getting at.

Tarnish -- what are you using? I'd suggest using Tarn-X as a first step, to get rid of the tarnish, and then polish it. Straight polishing is a huge chore, and this helps. Straight Tarn-X removed tarnish and leave it unprotected and it re-tarnishea super quickly. Plus, it kinda just looks weird and a bit hazy. But two steps, and it'll look great. All those tiny inner spots though are huge pain regardless. I went crazy on my little Martin to do it all. Bigger horn with 5 valves... I don't envy you.

That 4th slide is kind of ridiculous looking. It's virtually like another bow up there... But I think part of the idea is that with your LH sitting on the side of the horn for the 5th valve, you won't be messing around with the inside middle of the horn there. In fact, I had to stop and think for a minute what you meant by forearm rest.

I used what I had on hand- Wright's cream which makes a MESS but worked, and some liquid stuff that I found far in the back of a cabinet we never use. I'm trying Tarn-X tomorrow. I have that and Hagerty's, but I need to use that stuff outside.

Right- it literally is a fake inner bow- I had no idea what else to call it! These horns don't have that extra loop like on the 2250, Gronitz, HB, etc. I read somewhere that supposedly that extra loop is what creates the great low register response on piston F tubas- But NONE of the big Willson's have it, so it's got to be something else.

Serial on this horn- 2 0 0 7 is stamped on the second valve. There is nothing on the leadpipe like the piston 3200 FA-5. I see no other numbers.

Upon close inspection, it seems like somebody with zero skill or care soldered some braces back on this thing. I'll need to ask Keith to inspect the whole thing. It still plays great but I wonder what this tuba's story is.

Cool stuff, thanks!

I miss my Willson a LOT. Of all the horns I've owned, it was the best built. Mine was 5502, and that number "02" was stamped on every single piece, from valve paddles to inner slide tubes... No mixup of parts for old number 5502.

Your 5th is also after 1--4, which is unusual for a rotary tuba.

Really cool tuba, congratulations!

Make sure there are no pinholes in the rotors.

No pinholes here! By the way, glad you got that fixed!

This horn- Played it a LOT yesterday and even though it’s in desperate need of a cleaning and valve alignment, it very well could be the best F tuba I’ve ever played.

There’s just something about it- I don’t know if it’s new tuba syndrome or what, but it’s a darn good tuba.

Very cool! Out of curiosity, how did you find it? It sounds like it was stuck in a closet for a decade so was it for sale somewhere or was this a friend-of-a-friend deal? I always want to know if there’s somewhere I should be looking for cool tubas that I’m not!

It was posted here in the Off site ads forum, on a website I’d never heard of called Musical Chairs. He posted it on the other forum too but nobody was interested, it had been sitting on that site since maybe last December.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:15 pm
Low range is supremely open. Just wow. I expected this. But it's such a weird feeling on a rotary horn. It is likely the only model that has this characteristic. It feels just like the piston version, but with more character. I like both of them.
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The SOUND- Less "small C tuba" sound, more character, as I mentioned. I can't describe it in words well. Play them both, you'll notice a difference.

Should be just fine for brass band!