Das Rheingold

Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
Forum rules
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

I can't imagine myself ever being hired to perform this opera - and not even this scene, but it's fun to see how well I can manage to play it (even before I have enough caffeine in my system).

(FOR ME - having worked through it with both,) it's remarkably easier with a 5-valve BB-flat tuba, than with a 5-valve C tuba.

The low pitches just speak more easily (less cylindrical tubing) and - well - the button-mashing is simpler, which allows the brain to think more about the "ominous" (musical) effects, rather than concentrating so very much on achieving the technical.

Just as one example...
The opening double-low E-flat (though not choice #1 of valve combinations) is played with 5-1-3 (#1 pulled out to the end, and I have installed a stop rod - see other threads) and the smooth movement to the E-natural occurs by dropping valve #1 and adding valve #2 (probably one of the smoothest "slurs" on a brass instrument) while (for spot-on intonation) letting the #1 slide in a bit. ...OK...this (with the slide movement, and the alternate for double-low E-flat) may seem somewhat complicated (ie. the opposite of what I'm claiming), but it's really easy to grasp cognitively, and - the execution of it is so very "it-plays-itself"-like.

(By now,) having gone through tons of standard orchestral literature on this new-to-me instrument with a - de facto - new-to-me length, playing a quite a bit of German "contrabass" literature on their (actually: required) instrument (BB-flat) is pretty eye-opening, and - working hard to execute those passages on a 5-valve C instrument, all these years - sort of makes me think of all the American trumpet players who work so very hard to play the opening to Mahler 5 on their C trumpets (with both intonation issues and wonky back-side-of-the-instrument issues).

My eyes were finally opened (after so many years of playing the tuba) as to what was obviously the instrument owned by the first tuba player to ever perform Scheherazade; just a glance through the entire part shows that the part is written barely within the range of a 3-valve E-flat tuba (though I wouldn't choose to use such an instrument to play that particular piece) - thus the wonky "octave jump" in the opening statement of the motif, but quite a few composers of the past apparently wrote their parts TO the instruments which would be playing them, rather than "what sounds cool when played back by the midi devices set up in their (otherwise would have been) guestrooms or children's rooms in their homes".

oh yeah..."the Ride" - as well as "Fountains" and "Metamorphosis": also easier (and ALSO easier to TUNE), once the button-mashing has become second nature.

Image

re: bar 2671...I believe that should be quite loud, but (unlike a couple of "check THIS out" youtube videos) not so loud that the nature of the sound of the instrument is drastically changed, as Wagner ALREADY placed the loudest portion of the passage in the most resonant range of the instrument (ie. Allow the passage itself to do the heavy lifting)...but that's just one person's (my) interpretation...


Image


User avatar
Mary Ann
Posts: 3040
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:24 am
Has thanked: 521 times
Been thanked: 598 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by Mary Ann »

ya oughta try that on a Star. That pedal Eb would just roar, and the high parts would be easier. :facepalm2: :laugh:
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

Mary Ann wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:54 am ya oughta try that on a Star. That pedal Eb would just roar, and the high parts would be easier. :facepalm2: :laugh:
agreed, but...

Image

...and the slur from E-flat to E (no valves to all valves) would require some finesse as well, in addition to the only low E-flat in the passage being required to be played softly.
Last edited by bloke on Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
dp
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:28 am
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 133 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by dp »

the two biggest contributors to dystonia are a) a big ass tuba and b) overthinking
These users thanked the author dp for the post (total 3):
bloke (Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:32 am) • djwpe (Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:33 pm) • bowerybum (Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:36 am)
pfft (yes, that's for you)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

dp wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:22 am the two biggest contributors to dystonia are a) a big ass tuba and b) overthinking
As far as the first one is concerned, (when playing B.A.T.s) I don't attempt to over-play them as - with their naturally deep/round/resonant sound - they are not difficult to hear (even with blended in with raspy-sounding instruments). I was cured of that (decades ago) when I heard myself do that on recordings. UNLESS it's absolutely some special effect, it never "fits". Two or three years ago, this guy (a former low brass player) http://artmusicrecording.com/jamey-lamar came up to me and said, "I always like recording you, because - unlike most tuba players - you don't go for that 'awful sound' with things get really loud; you just keep the same type of sound, and make it louder." (wow...Did THAT make me feel good ! :thumbsup: )

As far as the second one is concerned, I believe that "You'll need a C tuba for college" is a definition of "under-thinking".
User avatar
arpthark
Posts: 3958
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:25 pm
Location: Southeastern Connecticut
Has thanked: 962 times
Been thanked: 1084 times
Contact:

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by arpthark »

bloke wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:09 am Image
Funny story about this excerpt. Learning F tuba at UK (that's the University of Kentucky for you Brits), the "studio horn" that Skip Gray required performance majors/upper classmen ed majors/etc. to learn F tuba on was this cruddy little Meinl-Weston 46 with the 4+2 setup, but with the linkage for the sixth valve snapped off and the valve taped shut with athletic tape, so it was essentially a 4+1. It was affectionately given the epithet "Flower Pot," because that's about all it was good for. To "graduate" from Flower Pot, you had to play all these contrabass tuba excerpts on it that lived in the low range: the big Rheingold excerpts, "Ride," and Fountains of Rome. I think some Snedecor was required as well. This helped students get used to the resonance characteristics in the low range of the German F tuba. Once you had "graduated" Flower Pot, you could move on to the GDR-era early Perantucci F, buy your own F tuba, whatever.

Playing the dragon solo on that cruddy old F tuba made me really appreciate how easily a nice big contrabass tuba could coax it out. Seems perfect for a big B-flat.
These users thanked the author arpthark for the post:
bloke (Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:41 pm)
tubanh84
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:12 am
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 126 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by tubanh84 »

Well I'm going to go ahead and be that guy with the 2/3 5th valve 184 that always talks about how great it is. By the way, have I mentioned how I have a 2/3 5th valve 184? I have one.

The 184 itself isn't the thing that makes this easier than a normal 4+1 CC. But the two-whole-step 5th valve really helps.
User avatar
UncleBeer
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:37 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 285 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by UncleBeer »

bloke wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:34 am you just keep the same type of sound, and make it louder.
While rehearsing Bruckner 8 with one of the best conductors I've worked with, he stopped to comment to the brass: "Don't be fooled by the f, ff and fff markings. They merely mean "beautiful, more beautiful, and most beautiful". That changed everything.
These users thanked the author UncleBeer for the post:
bloke (Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:37 pm)
User avatar
UncleBeer
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:37 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 285 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by UncleBeer »

arpthark wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:35 pm ...you had to play all these contrabass tuba excerpts on it that lived in the low range
I have fond memories of Toby Hanks making me play the Ride on my B&S F. :laugh:
These users thanked the author UncleBeer for the post:
arpthark (Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:16 pm)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

UncleBeer wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:11 pm
arpthark wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:35 pm ...you had to play all these contrabass tuba excerpts on it that lived in the low range
I have fond memories of Toby Hanks making me play the Ride on my B&S F. :laugh:
It's funny how playing contrabass stuff on bass - and vice-versa - improves things.
I believe it probably forces us to think less about the mechanics and more about the tune.
That having been said (per the original post - up there) I like "easier mechanics".
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

@arpthark, If nothing else, it's just nice to start a passage that doesn't call for 5-1-2-4 to all be mashed at the same time.
User avatar
arpthark
Posts: 3958
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:25 pm
Location: Southeastern Connecticut
Has thanked: 962 times
Been thanked: 1084 times
Contact:

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by arpthark »

bloke wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 3:43 pm @arpthark, If nothing else, it's just nice to start a passage that doesn't call for 5-1-2-4 to all be mashed at the same time.
For sure. And actually, on F tuba (not that I would perform this, ever, and especially not on F tuba) the first three notes are way easier to play piano in the pedal range of an F tuba as opposed through multiple feet of cylindrical tubing in a contrabass tuba.

I really like cranking out 5124 fortissimo low E-flats on C tuba, though, but I don't think they always sound appropriate when pushed, even on my admittedly puffy/pretty-sounding Eastman.
User avatar
matt g
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:37 am
Location: Southeastern New England
Has thanked: 263 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by matt g »

Am i the only one that would play the Eb 134 with a healthy pull on 1st and then easily slide up to 234 for E?
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

matt g wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:48 pm Am i the only one that would play the Eb 134 with a healthy pull on 1st and then easily slide up to 234 for E?
That sounds like a good idea, as long as your first valve slide is long enough.
User avatar
The Brute Squad
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:55 am
Location: Middleton, WI
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by The Brute Squad »

bloke wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:16 am ...and the slur from E-flat to E (no valves to all valves) would require some finesse as well
Unless you're completely nuts and try to "lip it." (not speaking from experience of playing Tchaik 5 on a 181 because that's all I had at the time or anything :red: )
Joe K

Player of tuba, taker of photos, breaker of things (mostly software)

Miraphone 181 F w/ GW Matanuska/Yamaha John Griffiths
Kalison Daryl Smith w/ Blokepiece (#2 32.6, Symphony cup and shank)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19373
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3860 times
Been thanked: 4119 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by bloke »

@The Brute Squad

Don't count me out for "nutty".

With my huge model 98 B-flat, as part of all the slide reconfig, I did a minor reconfig so-as the upper #4 (which I almost never use) now features SUPER-long inside slide tubes...the ONLY POSSIBLE (and not yet) use being using alternate valve combinations to achieve semitone portamenti.
Bob Kolada
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:50 pm
Location: Indiana
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by Bob Kolada »

bloke wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:16 am
Mary Ann wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:54 am ya oughta try that on a Star. That pedal Eb would just roar, and the high parts would be easier. :facepalm2: :laugh:
agreed, but...

Image

...and the slur from E-flat to E (no valves to all valves) would require some finesse as well, in addition to the only low E-flat in the passage being required to be played softly.
Open to 3 might work and would be less of a drastic tonal change, most of my horns played 3 better than 23. I used to practice a lot of low excerpts on a 3 valve Eb; on a horn with good false tones it's almost easier than a 5 valve horn. Playing along to a recording of the end of the first movement of Prokofiev 5th but an octave lower is a fun drinking activity. 🤣

I'd like to see Gene Pokorny play that excerpt. The few times I've seen him play he used a lot of looonng 4th valve slide pulls.
Kontrabasstuba
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:49 pm
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 598 times
Contact:

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by Kontrabasstuba »

Hey all,
i made a video where i compare two Vienna Tubas with two Rheingold motives. The Wurm and the Regenbogen.
I played on a Sprinz/Berlin and Dehmal/Wien.

Very interesting project.
Will post it here soon :-)
Kontrabasstuba
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:49 pm
Has thanked: 328 times
Been thanked: 598 times
Contact:

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by Kontrabasstuba »

Here it is:
@bloke


These users thanked the author Kontrabasstuba for the post:
matt g (Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:30 am)
User avatar
matt g
Posts: 2583
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:37 am
Location: Southeastern New England
Has thanked: 263 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Das Rheingold

Post by matt g »

@Kontrabasstuba, thanks for the comparison! Sounds like the second instrument cooperates a bit better on those low notes.
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)
Post Reply