Das Rheingold
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- bloke
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Das Rheingold
I can't imagine myself ever being hired to perform this opera - and not even this scene, but it's fun to see how well I can manage to play it (even before I have enough caffeine in my system).
(FOR ME - having worked through it with both,) it's remarkably easier with a 5-valve BB-flat tuba, than with a 5-valve C tuba.
The low pitches just speak more easily (less cylindrical tubing) and - well - the button-mashing is simpler, which allows the brain to think more about the "ominous" (musical) effects, rather than concentrating so very much on achieving the technical.
Just as one example...
The opening double-low E-flat (though not choice #1 of valve combinations) is played with 5-1-3 (#1 pulled out to the end, and I have installed a stop rod - see other threads) and the smooth movement to the E-natural occurs by dropping valve #1 and adding valve #2 (probably one of the smoothest "slurs" on a brass instrument) while (for spot-on intonation) letting the #1 slide in a bit. ...OK...this (with the slide movement, and the alternate for double-low E-flat) may seem somewhat complicated (ie. the opposite of what I'm claiming), but it's really easy to grasp cognitively, and - the execution of it is so very "it-plays-itself"-like.
(By now,) having gone through tons of standard orchestral literature on this new-to-me instrument with a - de facto - new-to-me length, playing a quite a bit of German "contrabass" literature on their (actually: required) instrument (BB-flat) is pretty eye-opening, and - working hard to execute those passages on a 5-valve C instrument, all these years - sort of makes me think of all the American trumpet players who work so very hard to play the opening to Mahler 5 on their C trumpets (with both intonation issues and wonky back-side-of-the-instrument issues).
My eyes were finally opened (after so many years of playing the tuba) as to what was obviously the instrument owned by the first tuba player to ever perform Scheherazade; just a glance through the entire part shows that the part is written barely within the range of a 3-valve E-flat tuba (though I wouldn't choose to use such an instrument to play that particular piece) - thus the wonky "octave jump" in the opening statement of the motif, but quite a few composers of the past apparently wrote their parts TO the instruments which would be playing them, rather than "what sounds cool when played back by the midi devices set up in their (otherwise would have been) guestrooms or children's rooms in their homes".
oh yeah..."the Ride" - as well as "Fountains" and "Metamorphosis": also easier (and ALSO easier to TUNE), once the button-mashing has become second nature.
re: bar 2671...I believe that should be quite loud, but (unlike a couple of "check THIS out" youtube videos) not so loud that the nature of the sound of the instrument is drastically changed, as Wagner ALREADY placed the loudest portion of the passage in the most resonant range of the instrument (ie. Allow the passage itself to do the heavy lifting)...but that's just one person's (my) interpretation...
(FOR ME - having worked through it with both,) it's remarkably easier with a 5-valve BB-flat tuba, than with a 5-valve C tuba.
The low pitches just speak more easily (less cylindrical tubing) and - well - the button-mashing is simpler, which allows the brain to think more about the "ominous" (musical) effects, rather than concentrating so very much on achieving the technical.
Just as one example...
The opening double-low E-flat (though not choice #1 of valve combinations) is played with 5-1-3 (#1 pulled out to the end, and I have installed a stop rod - see other threads) and the smooth movement to the E-natural occurs by dropping valve #1 and adding valve #2 (probably one of the smoothest "slurs" on a brass instrument) while (for spot-on intonation) letting the #1 slide in a bit. ...OK...this (with the slide movement, and the alternate for double-low E-flat) may seem somewhat complicated (ie. the opposite of what I'm claiming), but it's really easy to grasp cognitively, and - the execution of it is so very "it-plays-itself"-like.
(By now,) having gone through tons of standard orchestral literature on this new-to-me instrument with a - de facto - new-to-me length, playing a quite a bit of German "contrabass" literature on their (actually: required) instrument (BB-flat) is pretty eye-opening, and - working hard to execute those passages on a 5-valve C instrument, all these years - sort of makes me think of all the American trumpet players who work so very hard to play the opening to Mahler 5 on their C trumpets (with both intonation issues and wonky back-side-of-the-instrument issues).
My eyes were finally opened (after so many years of playing the tuba) as to what was obviously the instrument owned by the first tuba player to ever perform Scheherazade; just a glance through the entire part shows that the part is written barely within the range of a 3-valve E-flat tuba (though I wouldn't choose to use such an instrument to play that particular piece) - thus the wonky "octave jump" in the opening statement of the motif, but quite a few composers of the past apparently wrote their parts TO the instruments which would be playing them, rather than "what sounds cool when played back by the midi devices set up in their (otherwise would have been) guestrooms or children's rooms in their homes".
oh yeah..."the Ride" - as well as "Fountains" and "Metamorphosis": also easier (and ALSO easier to TUNE), once the button-mashing has become second nature.
re: bar 2671...I believe that should be quite loud, but (unlike a couple of "check THIS out" youtube videos) not so loud that the nature of the sound of the instrument is drastically changed, as Wagner ALREADY placed the loudest portion of the passage in the most resonant range of the instrument (ie. Allow the passage itself to do the heavy lifting)...but that's just one person's (my) interpretation...
- bloke
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Re: Das Rheingold
agreed, but...
...and the slur from E-flat to E (no valves to all valves) would require some finesse as well, in addition to the only low E-flat in the passage being required to be played softly.
Last edited by bloke on Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Das Rheingold
the two biggest contributors to dystonia are a) a big ass tuba and b) overthinking
pfft (yes, that's for you)
- bloke
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Re: Das Rheingold
As far as the first one is concerned, (when playing B.A.T.s) I don't attempt to over-play them as - with their naturally deep/round/resonant sound - they are not difficult to hear (even with blended in with raspy-sounding instruments). I was cured of that (decades ago) when I heard myself do that on recordings. UNLESS it's absolutely some special effect, it never "fits". Two or three years ago, this guy (a former low brass player) http://artmusicrecording.com/jamey-lamar came up to me and said, "I always like recording you, because - unlike most tuba players - you don't go for that 'awful sound' with things get really loud; you just keep the same type of sound, and make it louder." (wow...Did THAT make me feel good ! )
As far as the second one is concerned, I believe that "You'll need a C tuba for college" is a definition of "under-thinking".
- arpthark
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Re: Das Rheingold
Funny story about this excerpt. Learning F tuba at UK (that's the University of Kentucky for you Brits), the "studio horn" that Skip Gray required performance majors/upper classmen ed majors/etc. to learn F tuba on was this cruddy little Meinl-Weston 46 with the 4+2 setup, but with the linkage for the sixth valve snapped off and the valve taped shut with athletic tape, so it was essentially a 4+1. It was affectionately given the epithet "Flower Pot," because that's about all it was good for. To "graduate" from Flower Pot, you had to play all these contrabass tuba excerpts on it that lived in the low range: the big Rheingold excerpts, "Ride," and Fountains of Rome. I think some Snedecor was required as well. This helped students get used to the resonance characteristics in the low range of the German F tuba. Once you had "graduated" Flower Pot, you could move on to the GDR-era early Perantucci F, buy your own F tuba, whatever.
Playing the dragon solo on that cruddy old F tuba made me really appreciate how easily a nice big contrabass tuba could coax it out. Seems perfect for a big B-flat.
Blake
Bean Hill Brass
Bean Hill Brass
Re: Das Rheingold
Well I'm going to go ahead and be that guy with the 2/3 5th valve 184 that always talks about how great it is. By the way, have I mentioned how I have a 2/3 5th valve 184? I have one.
The 184 itself isn't the thing that makes this easier than a normal 4+1 CC. But the two-whole-step 5th valve really helps.
The 184 itself isn't the thing that makes this easier than a normal 4+1 CC. But the two-whole-step 5th valve really helps.
Re: Das Rheingold
While rehearsing Bruckner 8 with one of the best conductors I've worked with, he stopped to comment to the brass: "Don't be fooled by the f, ff and fff markings. They merely mean "beautiful, more beautiful, and most beautiful". That changed everything.
Re: Das Rheingold
I have fond memories of Toby Hanks making me play the Ride on my B&S F.
- bloke
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Re: Das Rheingold
It's funny how playing contrabass stuff on bass - and vice-versa - improves things.
I believe it probably forces us to think less about the mechanics and more about the tune.
That having been said (per the original post - up there) I like "easier mechanics".
- bloke
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Re: Das Rheingold
@arpthark, If nothing else, it's just nice to start a passage that doesn't call for 5-1-2-4 to all be mashed at the same time.
- arpthark
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Re: Das Rheingold
For sure. And actually, on F tuba (not that I would perform this, ever, and especially not on F tuba) the first three notes are way easier to play piano in the pedal range of an F tuba as opposed through multiple feet of cylindrical tubing in a contrabass tuba.
I really like cranking out 5124 fortissimo low E-flats on C tuba, though, but I don't think they always sound appropriate when pushed, even on my admittedly puffy/pretty-sounding Eastman.
Blake
Bean Hill Brass
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- matt g
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Re: Das Rheingold
Am i the only one that would play the Eb 134 with a healthy pull on 1st and then easily slide up to 234 for E?
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)
- bloke
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- The Brute Squad
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Re: Das Rheingold
Unless you're completely nuts and try to "lip it." (not speaking from experience of playing Tchaik 5 on a 181 because that's all I had at the time or anything )
Joe K
Player of tuba, taker of photos, breaker of things (mostly software)
Miraphone 181 F w/ GW Matanuska/Yamaha John Griffiths
Kalison Daryl Smith w/ Blokepiece (#2 32.6, Symphony cup and shank)
Player of tuba, taker of photos, breaker of things (mostly software)
Miraphone 181 F w/ GW Matanuska/Yamaha John Griffiths
Kalison Daryl Smith w/ Blokepiece (#2 32.6, Symphony cup and shank)
- bloke
- Mid South Music
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Re: Das Rheingold
@The Brute Squad
Don't count me out for "nutty".
With my huge model 98 B-flat, as part of all the slide reconfig, I did a minor reconfig so-as the upper #4 (which I almost never use) now features SUPER-long inside slide tubes...the ONLY POSSIBLE (and not yet) use being using alternate valve combinations to achieve semitone portamenti.
Don't count me out for "nutty".
With my huge model 98 B-flat, as part of all the slide reconfig, I did a minor reconfig so-as the upper #4 (which I almost never use) now features SUPER-long inside slide tubes...the ONLY POSSIBLE (and not yet) use being using alternate valve combinations to achieve semitone portamenti.
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Re: Das Rheingold
Open to 3 might work and would be less of a drastic tonal change, most of my horns played 3 better than 23. I used to practice a lot of low excerpts on a 3 valve Eb; on a horn with good false tones it's almost easier than a 5 valve horn. Playing along to a recording of the end of the first movement of Prokofiev 5th but an octave lower is a fun drinking activity.
I'd like to see Gene Pokorny play that excerpt. The few times I've seen him play he used a lot of looonng 4th valve slide pulls.
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Re: Das Rheingold
Hey all,
i made a video where i compare two Vienna Tubas with two Rheingold motives. The Wurm and the Regenbogen.
I played on a Sprinz/Berlin and Dehmal/Wien.
Very interesting project.
Will post it here soon :-)
i made a video where i compare two Vienna Tubas with two Rheingold motives. The Wurm and the Regenbogen.
I played on a Sprinz/Berlin and Dehmal/Wien.
Very interesting project.
Will post it here soon :-)
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Re: Das Rheingold
Here it is:
@bloke
@bloke
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- matt g (Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:30 am)
- matt g
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Re: Das Rheingold
@Kontrabasstuba, thanks for the comparison! Sounds like the second instrument cooperates a bit better on those low notes.
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)
Meinl-Weston 2165 (sold)