extra large BB-flat tuba "b-b-b-b-b-b-r-r-r-r" attacks

[bloke]

Even a (real) tubah goddhh friend of mine (who is playing a good bit of 6/4 B-flat, these days) openly admits to this problem/issue.
(When I told them about the really large BB-flat tuba that I now own, the first thing they asked was, "so how are you dealing with the faulty attacks issue?")

If not right on the money - with lip vibration (OR the lip vibration is right on the money, but the length of the tuba - for that pitch - is not) the 6/4-size 18-feet bugle tubas have more of a propensity to do this (faulty attacks) than shorter tubas.

You would think that the longer the tuba, the less critical the need for accuracy (lip vibration and instrument length for a given pitch - BOTH), but it's just the opposite.

The few times I've picked up a GG shoulder-mount "contra", this issue is even more (even MUCH more, in my experience) treacherous.

bloke "I accept the challenge, and - likely - my playing accuracy (overall - all lengths of tubas) is benefiting...and I'm really having to concentrate. Further, this is why I (repair forum) reconfigured nearly all of the valve circuits' slides."

...or (alternately) Bb vs. C / lacquer vs. silver...

Have a go !

[Doc]

Spending time daily (even just warming up) on a big BBb every day DOES make attacks, articulation, and flexibility easier on your smaller instruments. The precision and efficiency you have to develop translates well into playing smaller tubas.

Conversely, playing/working through something on a smaller instrument (on which the passage might be easier) DOES translate facility to the big instrument. Or so it seems to me. Maybe that’s a mental thing, maybe it’s physical, both, or neither, but it works. Play it well on a small tuba, then play it well on the big tuba. Kinda the opposite of attack/articulate well on a big tuba, then attack/articulate well on a small tuba. Both complement each other.
Two opposing lanes on the same two-way scenic loop that begins and ends at the same place.

Ok. That’s enough. I haven’t had coffee yet.

[UncleBeer]

You would think that the longer the tuba, the less critical the need for accuracy (lip vibration and instrument length for a given pitch - BOTH), but it's just the opposite.

Nope. Think of the French horn: Stays pretty narrow without much flare for 12 feet (same length as an F tuba, but obviously different flare). It's the ratio of pipe diameter to pipe length which causes this, so that's why a BBb tuba exhibits a similar 'dangerousness' as the French horn when compared to any higher-keyed tuba.

[matt g]

^bingo^

[arpthark]

Do you have that problem with the Holton?

After playing C tuba for so many years, I just can't see myself going back to using a BBb as my main contrabass for this reason in the original post. I'll take 10% better clarity of attack (IMO more noticeable) in exchange for 10% less breadth of sound (which is more subjectively observed, depending on orchestration, room, sectionmates, etc.) most of the time.

[bloke]

Do you have that problem with the Holton?

Which of us are you addressing?

[arpthark]

Do you have that problem with the Holton?

Which of us are you addressing?

You, and the squat Holton you built. Do you find the bbbrrr tendency occurs on that instrument, too? Or is it just amplified on the 98?

i.e., a BBb tendency or a BBigassBBb tendency?

[bloke]

No. It only seems to be an issue with the really big instruments - OK, and quite a few crappy whatever-size B-Flats, as there are plenty of those, just like there are plenty of crappy tubas built in all the other lengths.

Speaking of Holton, that's one of the few makes where there are sister 6/4 models manufactured in the two keys. The best of the B-Flats are far more resonant than those in C, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it, and I'm comparing it to the factory instruments in C that I have played. The first time I used that 32-in tall 4/4 Holton was to play Concerto for Orchestra. It was probably two weeks after I had finished putting it together. There were plenty of opportunities for poor attacks, but the instrument didn't let me down (highlights recently linked In in another thread).

All of the 6/4 instruments in C that I've owned have been just sort of whatever to really good (probably the most fun to play having been that tricked out 2165 that now is in Texas, and probably the best in tune having been a Rudy 5/4 that is now in Georgia), but when I first played one of these 98 things (exhibit) that I own now, it made me giggle. It was at IU at that International shindig thing. I was actually upstairs a couple of hours previous trying out Yamaha 826's, and had just tried out Floyd Cooley's Nirschl that he was selling. He talked to me in a pretty snotty/cagey way when I asked if it was for sale. "IF it were for sale, the price would be blah-blah". I played it and thought it was pretty good, but not as good as the Yamahas upstairs, even though that room up there was really hot (temperature). What he didn't know was that I had several thousand more in folding money - in my zipper jacket - than he was asking for his instrument...so the thing that was occurring was that he was being snotty and cagey about something that could have easily purchased on the spot, but I wasn't interested in owning.

I've made it no secret - and I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing about it - that my number one, two, and three requirements of a tuba are that it's easy to play in tune, but - if it's got the type of sound that this thing does, and also is easy to play in tune - well, I'm not going to pass up on that.

[Mary Ann]

Nope. Think of the French horn: Stays pretty narrow without much flare for 12 feet (same length as an F tuba, but obviously different flare). It's the ratio of pipe diameter to pipe length which causes this, so that's why a BBb tuba exhibits a similar 'dangerousness' as the French horn when compared to any higher-keyed tuba.

I have not personally noticed that tendency on a horn. I have noticed difficulty in finding the slot in the upper reaches, but that seems a different problem, because what happens is the wrong note comes out. Having zero experience with a big BBb tuba, I can't compare.

[bloke]

Nope. Think of the French horn: Stays pretty narrow without much flare for 12 feet (same length as an F tuba, but obviously different flare). It's the ratio of pipe diameter to pipe length which causes this, so that's why a BBb tuba exhibits a similar 'dangerousness' as the French horn when compared to any higher-keyed tuba.

I have not personally noticed that tendency on a horn. I have noticed difficulty in finding the slot in the upper reaches, but that seems a different problem, because what happens is the wrong note comes out. Having zero experience with a big BBb tuba, I can't compare.

It might be more noticeable to horn players if they played F horns, and didn't have the B flat cheater valve. I would love to have a double tuba were it not that the bore of the tuba body expands so quickly. Adding that much cylindrical tubing in order to take it away renders the contrabass side of double tubas useless, and defines such instruments as gimmicks... not to mention the slow valves, due to the gigantic size of them.
Hasn't Tommy Johnson's C-F piston instrument with the rotating gadgetry been sold twice since it was first bought from his estate?

[iiipopes]

Even a (real) tubah goddhh friend of mine (who is playing a good bit of 6/4 B-flat, these days) openly admits to this problem/issue.
(When I told them about the really large BB-flat tuba that I now own, the first thing they asked was, "so how are you dealing with the faulty attacks issue?")

If not right on the money - with lip vibration (OR the lip vibration is right on the money, but the length of the tuba - for that pitch - is not) the 6/4-size 18-feet bugle tubas have more of a propensity to do this (faulty attacks) than shorter tubas.

You would think that the longer the tuba, the less critical the need for accuracy (lip vibration and instrument length for a given pitch - BOTH), but it's just the opposite.

The few times I've picked up a GG shoulder-mount "contra", this issue is even more (even MUCH more, in my experience) treacherous.

bloke "I accept the challenge, and - likely - my playing accuracy (overall - all lengths of tubas) is benefiting...and I'm really having to concentrate. Further, this is why I (repair forum) reconfigured nearly all of the valve circuits' slides."

...or (alternately) Bb vs. C / lacquer vs. silver...

Have a go !

This ^ Compare this post to my recent post in a sousaphone thread which also talks about necessary modifications to a souzy in order to address essentially the same issue, including the extra care needed for precise intonation and good tone.