Question about Fillmore Sousaphone

[gilbee]

I recently acquired a sousaphone and I don't know much about it, and google searches have come up pretty light.

I believe this is an EEb Sousa, but tubas admittedly are not my thing so I could be wrong. The only markings I can find on it are the brand on the bell (Fillmore Music House - Cincinatti), which I've found was the later name of Fillmore Brothers, of which Henry Fillmore was a part.

I haven't found any other pictures of sousaphones made by Fillmore anywhere on the internet, but that doesn't mean it's rare...does anyone have one of these and could offer any information about it (e.g., help dating it beyond 1912-1952 which the manufacturer name format tells me, were there multiple models, is this a student or a more professional model, rough idea of value, etc)?

Photo 1

Photo 2


Thanks in advance!

-G

[bloke]

As I suspected before I clicked on the pictures, it was made by King. Realize the proximity of Cleveland to Cincinnati.

[gilbee]

I dont see any reference to king anywhere on the instrument, could you tell me more or any other references to be looking at? Fillmore music house is the final name iteration of Fillmore brothers, so wasn’t thinking this was anything but one of their instruments…

[GC]

I have a Fillmore Bros 1/2 size Eb tuba that was built around 1905 (my best guess from a little research). It looks very much like some small tubas built around that era by Wurlitzer. I have read the opinion that Fillmore Bros instruments from that era were made by various other manufacturers. I can't verify that, however.

[gilbee]

GC, as a frame of reference, I see you’ve got one listed in your signature block for sale. What price point have you put on yours? In your knowledge is there any significance to this one being marked as a “Fillmore Special”? I had someone mention to me they believed the “special” models were US made vs imported from Europe. Are these known as more student quality or more of a professional instrument? I honestly don’t know what sets one apart from the other, so more curiosity than anything else.

[York-aholic]

As @bloke said, it was made by H.N. White / King as a stencil that the Fillmore Music House paid to have their shop name engraved on it. Many US manufacturers made horns for other company's to sell with their names on them. Also, many companies imported European instruments and likewise paid to have their names engraved on them.

It is definitely a King (originally named H.N. White) as they are the only company to have used that lower leadpipe and main tuning slide configuration.

It is a BBb sousaphone, rather than an Eb (EEb).

Your sousaphone looks to be in very nice shape.

[bloke]

I believe that's one of their skinny lightweight instruments that they offered before they were such things as fiberglass sousaphones. I'm pretty sure the valve section bore size is the same as on the regular sized sousaphone. Quite a few years ago, I pulled one of those valve sections off of one of those bodies and transplanted it to a full size body that had ruined valves, and ended up making a nice (de facto) model 1250 with new silver plating to sell to a local University.

I wish they hadn't changed those instruments into the 2350 configuration. That old style main tuning slide was just wide enough to get your finger in the main slide bow and pull it out easily. Now, Jupiter has copied the skinny style slide, and they're always really hard to get out when I'm repairing those things.

[York-aholic]

Thank you @bloke for the subtle and deserved correction on my statement about King being the only ones to ever use that main slide configuration. I haven’t ever looked at a Jupiter.

Guess I should have quantified by adding “…in that era”

[bloke]

I had no intention of correcting. I'm not sure if I really read your post very carefully, so to correct that I would have had to read it for details.
JP is another copy of King. People can say that I think they're better because I sell them, but I would encourage people to compare them to Jupiter side by side and even to currently made King. I still think that King - as much as they've been degraded - still play in tune a little better than JP, but JP is considerably better made compared to current made King and Jupiter, okay.. in my opinion.
JP also copies that skinny mainslide, but they took a little length out of the rest of the instrument so that the main book slide extends out past the first slide, which makes it easy to grasp and pull.
With a competitively priced vendor/bidder, JP is also about half the price of King, and also less expensive than Jupiter. ..
>>> end of commercial <<<

[windshieldbug]

Horn-u-copia Fillmore page:

The Fillmore Company started in business in 1905 as importers of instruments.

Most brass are made in Austria and use model names National, Elite, Imperial, Marvel, Avalon, Princess, Reliable & Norwood.
1874 Frank G. Fillmore (1853-c.1890) is a printer in Cin.
1875 brother Charles Millard Fillmore (1860-1952) and cousin Lavias Challen Fillmore (1856-1945) join Frank as printers
1876 first listing for Fillmore Brothers, 8 East 4th St., music book publishers
1878 brother James Henry Fillmore, Sr. (1849-1936) joins them (top photo)
1881 Fillmore Brothers moves to 12 Glenn Building, 185 Race St
1890 brother Fred A. Fillmore (1856-1925), music teacher & composer, is listed with them
1891 Fillmore Brothers moves to 141 West 6th St. and also starts Armstrong & Fillmore, printers & binders
1900 Fillmore Bros. now at #119 West 6th St.
1902 now Fillmore Brothers Co., #421 Elm St., James Sr. pres, W.W. Warwick vp, Lavias sec-tres, Charles director
1905 now at #528 Elm St.
1912 name changes to Fillmore Music House, #538 Elm St.
1920 James Henry Fillmore, Jr. (1881-1956) is the manager; he is a publisher, composer, & trombone player (bottom photo)
Fillmore Store
1925 now at #524-528 Elm St.
1930 now at #522-528 Elm St.
1941 still at #522-528 Elm St., James H. Jr. is pres, Challen is sec-tres; claim established in 1874
1952 Fillmore Music House is absorbed by Carl Fischer music
1956 Henry (JHF, Jr.) dies in Miami, Florida where he is head of the University of Miami music department


Instruments marked ‘Fillmore Bros’ date to 1876-1901.
Instruments marked ‘Fillmore Bros. Co.’ date to 1902-1911.
Instruments marked ‘Fillmore Music House’ date to 1912-1952.

[gilbee]

As @bloke said, it was made by H.N. White / King as a stencil that the Fillmore Music House paid to have their shop name engraved on it. Many US manufacturers made horns for other company's to sell with their names on them. Also, many companies imported European instruments and likewise paid to have their names engraved on them.

It is definitely a King (originally named H.N. White) as they are the only company to have used that lower leadpipe and main tuning slide configuration.

It is a BBb sousaphone, rather than an Eb (EEb).

Your sousaphone looks to be in very nice shape.

Thanks for the assessment! Could you hazard a guess at what king model would be the comparable one this is based from?

[bloke]

I've never seen their skinny stuff shown on any scans of old catalogs/brochures, and the only ones I've encountered have been "stencil" (store) brand instruments.

>>> I AM NOT A HISTORIAN NOR A KING EXPERT <<<

none seen here:

http://hnwhite.com/Low%20Brass.htm#Sousaphones

[GC]

Windshieldbugs listing is the most comprehensive I've seen by far.

[bloke]

Okay, I apologize. I thought the question was which King model this Fillmore stencil would be comparable to.

[gilbee]

Okay, I apologize. I thought the question was which King model this Fillmore stencil would be comparable to.

That was indeed my follow-up question.

[York-aholic]

Could the Cadet model from @bloke’s link be similar? Scroll to the bottom for measurements.

[Yorkboy]

Braces are most definitely H.N. White “King” (“professional”) line.

Ferrules are consistent with their “Cleveland” or “American Standard” (student or “value”) line.

[gilbee]

After looking at blokes link, I was thinking it looked like a 1250A from the 1946 picture, but the bell is 22 inches, and only the earliest models in that history have 22 inch bells…interesting.

[gilbee]

Also, just a point of information, a few people have PM’d me about the horn, I don’t yet have the ability to reply as my post count isn’t high enough. Maybe I’ll get there soon and can respond back to y’all.

[bloke]

To me the 1250A looks like a 1250 (basically the 2350 size sousaphone of today) SIMPLY with less bell flair/pancake.


...of imagine putting a King RECORDING BASS bell (22") on a REGULAR 4/4 body, EXCEPT with a FULL 90-DEGREE "sousaphone" bell elbow. 4

so...in my opinion re: your hypothesis...no.