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As many notes as they can play with a great deal of velocity and all that, I believe they are just a little bit more disconnected from the music than are brass players, because we actually make the vibration with our bodies, and the only mechanisms that we have are those which change the length of our instrument and only even with triggers and maximum of probably six or seven lengths which we can mix and match and only with minimal useful combinations of lengths... and the same thing goes for string players versus woodwind players. Everything string players do is involves their hands on the instruments - and no gadgetry.

We (our little small business) had a university woodwind teacher tell us that they had almost no money to spend, but desperately needed at least one bassoon for use in their woodwind methods class that they are teaching. I have no idea - and neither does Mrs. bloke - whether there were actually forgotten school-owned bassoons sitting high on their shelves (that she could have repaired for them), but she responded with "okay, as you only have 1,500 bucks, I have an old plastic American made bassoon here with all of the regular keys, none of the extra bells and whistles, and no wear and tear, that I can sell you in a good case - and with all new pads and such (basically offering to give them the bassoon but just charging for the work to put it in good shape - in addition to a nice new case) for only that much, and I'll sort through my bocals and find one that seems to play it best, at least choosing through the couple dozen non-expensive and often non-name brand bocals that I have here.
... so the deal was made and she got it ready to go in time for a professional tuba player recital that happened to be at that school. I attended that recital, and handed it off to the recital-hosting low brass professor who handed it off to the woodwind professor.
The first thing we heard was that "some keys on the boot joint were out of adjustment and the response wasn't this and this wasn't that" etc.
Of course, they are accustomed to a $1,000 bocal, a $30,000 bassoon, and using their reeds - which they custom make to play their bassoon optimally (yet testing this bottom of the barrel plastic bassoon). To say that the boot joint was out of adjustment was a little bit ignorant and a little bit insulting, because it was in adjustment based on the design of the instrument, with some things done by Mrs bloke to favor some of the acoustical flaws in the instrument the best she could manage. Mrs bloke wasn't offering to re-bore nor re-key the instrument to imitate a vintage Heckel bassoon, but only to make it play as well as it did when it left its factory...and seriously: the price.
Somehow, I don't suspect that a lot of woodwind teachers spend much time playing low-end quality instruments, certainly not compared to brass teachers. Even though we speak the praises here of the 1970s vintage Olds O-99 tubas, we know good and well that there are better tubas in that size range, but they cost five or ten times as much. I suspect that this level of realism and embracing of reality doesn't make it much into the professional woodwind educational realm.

Again, I think it might be related to the fact that they are using a piece of wood to make the vibration instead of their own body, and that they are operating basically a complicated specialized keyboard in order to execute the pitches that they're playing, even with a mechanism to control which range of the instrument in which they are playing, with much less to do with facial muscles compared to brass and much more related to the quality of the piece of wood in their mouth, the quality of the taper of the bore of their instrument, and the care taken to shape and place the holes in their instruments (and no one needs to school me about all the physiological things involved in playing a woodwind instrument well. I can actually produce a very acceptable clarinet and saxophone sound throughout the ranges of those instruments, and understand those things. That to which I refer is >> in comparison <<.) Accomplished brass players tend to be able to pick up things like Bundy trombones and Bundy trumpets and alter their mouth vibration, airstream and things like that to make those sorts of instruments do it the best they do, whereas woodwind players might pick up something like a Bundy flute - that isn't as willing to be played as their $30,000 flute - and claim that the things that are wrong with it are lack of attention to detail in the person who repadded it or checked over it.
Interestingly - after a week or two of Mrs bloke asking when she could pick the instrument back up to check it back over for possible oversights, the teacher finally responded and let her know that they've decided that it's okay after all.

Finally, had they just been able to cough up yet another $1,500 (which was not available), Mrs bloke would have been glad to sell them an all-fixed-up-to-play-like-new polypropylene Fox "Renard" student bassoon (though she typically charges around $4,000 for these), which plays - hands down - infinitely better than the brand that she offered for only $1,500, surely (??) the woodwind professor is aware of the difference, and understood that 99% of all businesses would have simply explained to them that $1,500 would not buy >> any << bassoon that they had for sale.

As with Forrest Gump, I guess that's all I have to say about that.

Some people are just a$$es, you know.
In our New Horizons band, we have both me playing the Cor and the 3rd trumpet from Tucson Symphony having fun with an oboe this summer. Both of us have noted how incredibly easier those are to play than ANY brass. You just blow and put your fingers down!! WOW!
QED

It seems to me that ANY university professor teaching ANY instrument needs to be aware of the playing characteristics of the various levels of instruments available in their area of expertise- “student”, “intermediate”, “professional”. It is necessary knowledge to pass along to their students, especially if those students are going into music education and will be advising their future students on instrument purchases as well as spending their budget money on school owned instruments.

Having been a music education student myself (a long time ago) and in a college where the philosophy was that all of us had to learn to play all the instruments, at least to a degree, that we were going to teach, I naturally was required to take all of those methods courses. I think I did pretty good in woodwind class, but with the exception of the double reeds. They were my Achilles’ heel. Honestly, I don’t understand how ANYONE gets a decent sound out of those. With me everything sounded like either a kid’s party favor or a duck call.

Now I'm going to waste time considering whether the availability of a plastic Fox bassoon for $3000 would be enough to temp me to play one for fun. I'd probably be dissuaded by the hassle of reeds, anyway.

I found it sort of entertaining, but fingering too awkward, and inadequate volume. Bass clarinet sounds better at its best, worse at its worst.

Easy to play? Piano is easiest, I suppose - just put finger down, sound comes out. Don't ask me why, but somehow I'm not a terrific pianist.

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:50 pm Now I'm going to waste time considering whether the availability of a plastic Fox bassoon for $3000 would be enough to temp me to play one for fun. I'd probably be dissuaded by the hassle of reeds, anyway.

Oh on bassoon the synthetic reeds work quite well --- I have a friend who's been playing about three years now using them, and he sounds perfectly fine. As opposed to synthetic oboe reeds, which are a basic ripoff and should not be sold, period. And I found the reason I am terminally flat on clarinet is because I'm using a synthetic reed. But bassoon -- they are fine and last a very long time.

Old single reeds are going to play flat. Old ones that aren't warped or cracked work okay just to make sure an instruments play after we're through repairing them, but if we really want to check intonation/voicing, we need to get - not only a new reed, but - a good reed.

The cheapest reeds - which typically are Rico - are used by some of the highest paid players, who are those who double on five or six instruments in the pits of traveling Broadway shows. Cheap reeds are quick to soak up moisture, and play better after sitting for a few minutes than do somewhat better sounding reeds - which are made of higher quality cane and slower to absorb moisture. Also, the quality of synthetic single reeds varies as well as their playing characteristics, and players can learn how to play them compared to the strategies which are employed to play natural reeds.

The idea of buying single reeds which are thicker / harder than so-called medium or #3 is to put one's own taper on them (with a reed knife), rather than using the taper that the reed manufacturer cuts onto reeds. It's not uncommon for professionals to go through a box of expensive reeds, pick out two or three of the ten for their own use, put the rest back in the box, and offer them to some of their less accomplished students for less than they themselves paid for them. Strength 4 and 5 reeds are absurdly hard and resistant to vibrating... and probably should only be purchased with the intention of shaving them down to one's own custom taper...
...ok: "in my opinion".

Speaking of reeds: we all know that many players keep their reeds hydrated in a small container of water. I have a friend (of course - he also plays bagpipes in full regalia for community functions, funerals, etc., and is the only bagpiper I can stand to stay in the same 40 acres with), who keeps his reeds when he plays in a wee dram of a good single malt, ready to consume once the occasion is complete.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:34 pm Speaking of reeds: we all know that many players keep their reeds hydrated in a small container of water. I have a friend (of course - he also plays bagpipes in full regalia for community functions, funerals, etc., and is the only bagpiper I can stand to stay in the same 40 acres with), who keeps his reeds when he plays in a wee dram of a good single malt, ready to consume once the occasion is complete.

So you're saying that some woodwind players do get it.

Classical musicians and some others have the luxury of sitting in front of a music stand with reed's soaking so that they remain in optimal playing condition, but people playing in Broadway show pits have about three seconds to change from oboe to bass clarinet and then to flute and then to tenor saxophone and etc., and don't have the luxury of pulling their reeds out of little water containers and mounting them on their instruments prior to playing the next number. Thus: Rico (or synthetic) reeds.

One word: plastic.

Given the out-of-tune unstable quackiness of plastic oboe reeds, which cost $150 apiece, I'm quite happy to have just acquired a most excellent Cor Anglais reed from a regional maker, for $38. To be used in the next concert when I am alternating between horn and Cor. I can't imagine a plastic Cor reed sounding any less insane than a plastic oboe reed. And yes this one will be sitting having been first soaked and then kept wet by dipping between pieces. It is SO dry here that leaving it on the instrument results in a 100% dry reed in a matter of minutes.

More than a few people soak their reeds in hydrogen peroxide for a little while after they're done, to (even though a very weak acid) negate the effects of saliva - which tends to digest organic material, as it is designed to do (notice the use of the term "designed"). It also does a pretty good job of killing all the cooties. Others will just put a drop or two of chlorine bleach in their little second canister with the water. This defines having to carry around two different little 35mm film canisters with tight lids...Do film manufacturers still put film in those things?

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:06 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:34 pm Speaking of reeds: we all know that many players keep their reeds hydrated in a small container of water. I have a friend (of course - he also plays bagpipes in full regalia for community functions, funerals, etc., and is the only bagpiper I can stand to stay in the same 40 acres with), who keeps his reeds when he plays in a wee dram of a good single malt, ready to consume once the occasion is complete.

So you're saying that some woodwind players do get it.

Yes. Not only does he get it, but he is a retired Huey & Black Hawk pilot. So he really gets it.


And to comment on another post above, in high school our best clarinet player had an allergy to cane. She would break out at her embouchure. Fortunately, (mid to late '70's) synthetic reeds were just becoming available. She switched. No issues. She went on to play in all-state band.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:17 am More than a few people soak their reeds in hydrogen peroxide for a little while after they're done, to (even though a very weak acid) negate the effects of saliva - which tends to digest organic material, as it is designed to do (notice the use of the term "designed"). It also does a pretty good job of killing all the cooties. Others will just put a drop or two of chlorine bleach in their little second canister with the water. This defines having to carry around two different little 35mm film canisters with tight lids...Do film manufacturers still put film in those things?

Yes, you can still buy film, and it still comes in those little canisters. Film photography is actually enjoying something of a Renaissance. Folks like me enjoy using classic fine quality film cameras such as Leica and Rollei.

jtm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:50 pm Now I'm going to waste time considering whether the availability of a plastic Fox bassoon for $3000 would be enough to temp me to play one for fun. I'd probably be dissuaded by the hassle of reeds, anyway.

Eh, you could get two or three Linton bassoons for that.

DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:11 am

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:17 am More than a few people soak their reeds in hydrogen peroxide for a little while after they're done, to (even though a very weak acid) negate the effects of saliva - which tends to digest organic material, as it is designed to do (notice the use of the term "designed"). It also does a pretty good job of killing all the cooties. Others will just put a drop or two of chlorine bleach in their little second canister with the water. This defines having to carry around two different little 35mm film canisters with tight lids...Do film manufacturers still put film in those things?

Yes, you can still buy film, and it still comes in those little canisters. Film photography is actually enjoying something of a Renaissance. Folks like me enjoy using classic fine quality film cameras such as Leica and Rollei.

The vegetable crisper in my fridge has about 40 rolls of expired 35mm and 120 film. I can't believe what people are paying on eBay for this stuff--maybe I should resell it all while there's money to be made.

I used to enjoy shooting my now-vintage Yashica and Nikon 35mm gear, as well as my Yachica Mat MF TLR camera...but the only film I've shot lately has been to test cameras prior to reselling them. It doesn't help that my favorite film, Portra 400VC, is long gone.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:35 pmOh on bassoon the synthetic reeds work quite well --- I have a friend who's been playing about three years now using them, and he sounds perfectly fine. As opposed to synthetic oboe reeds, which are a basic ripoff and should not be sold, period. And I found the reason I am terminally flat on clarinet is because I'm using a synthetic reed. But bassoon -- they are fine and last a very long time.

I have spent a small fortune on synthetic clarinet reeds and have yet to find a playable one that doesn't blow flat after playing it for 45 minutes. I eventually resorted to rotating four synthetics as needed, but am now back to cane.

Hm, I never noticed that, but may not have played 45 minutes uninterrupted on them. I hardly play regular clarinet at all, and bass clarinet only rarely as kind of a gag. And I believe in both cases they're old Fibracell reeds, and there have been changes in that stuff. The bigger the reed, the more appealing plastic will be. Cane reeds for big sax and clarinet family were a nightmare. Inconsistent, from one to the next, from one day to the next for the same reed, etc., while I don't recall any real trouble with the common soprano clarinet.

As for film - yeah, I've got a pile of old negatives that I keep around for no particular reason. Some LF [hi, Ben], some MF. I believe I still have the Rolleiflex, after the camera store buyer's offer seemed far too low, but no idea what to do with it.

Most people I know who use plastic reeds on single reed instruments do switch between instruments a bunch for most of their gigs. I'm being really redundant, but this includes Broadway pit work - where someone's playing five different instruments or even six, and it also includes someone playing in a jazz quintet, quartet, or trio where either they are one horn with a keyboard and bass or they are one of two horn players with a little rhythm section and are trying to make the band sound more diverse.