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For at least the past few years, it has been practically impossible to find someone from whom you could buy a Czech tuba. Back in the 70’s Custom Music had them, in the 80’s Vince had them at Tuba Exchange. In fact I bought one from him circa 1986-87. He had just received a shipment of 6 Amati 481s (like the Cerveny 681 branded differently) and I played all six. I walked out with pick of the litter. It was one of those with the Chicklet shaped keys. I lived that horn, everything about it was awesome. I regret selling it, but at the time I thought I wouldn’t be playing tuba any more.

Now, after the Czech products being next to impossible to acquire, we have Buckeye Brass carrying the Cerveny line and Lee Stofer carrying Lidl horns. I am familiar with the Cerveny models and many of the Lidl horns seem to be clones of the various Cerveny models. I remember back when Cerveny “went out of business”, then Lidl said they would be making the Cerveny models under their name, then Cerveny “came back”, and now we have both. Very confusing.

I am interested in hearing opinions on the differences between the horns from the 2 companies, if there are any. Are they in reality both the same company? Is there a relationship between them? If they are distinct, what are the differences in build quality, intonation, etc? The Cerveny models seem to be a bit more expensive. But they come with a “case”, whereas the Lidl clearly comes with a gig bag, although I suppose “a case” could also be a bag. If it was your money, which brand would you buy, and why? Of course the Cerveny name has some cache’. They invented the rotary valve tuba, for Pete’s sake. Not as familiar with Lidl history.

Cerveny catalog.

https://www.vfcerveny.cz/media/attachme ... yk-min.pdf

Ace

I just contacted Buckeye Brass. Lonny there was very helpful. I confirmed that the Cervenys all come with a hard case, as opposed to the gig bag supplied with the Lidl. This could account for the slightly higher prices on the Cerveny models, since a good hard case can easily cost upwards of $700. Also, as far as tubas they have in stock, they are sold out of all BBb models. They have CCs, Fs, and a compensating Eb in. It figures that I’m only interested in BBb! So I thought about taking a trip out there and trying them out but there’s no point until they get more BBb stock in, which Lonny says will be sometime in the fall.

There is a bit of confusion about the Czech instrument-making situation, and hopefully I can shed a little light on that.

As I understand it, after WWII Czech industry was nationalized, with the government taking over Josef Lidl's company in Brno,
the Cerveny Company in Hradec Kralove, and the remnant of the Kraslice makers who did not flee to Germany. The makers in
Kraslice were united under the name Amati, which became the head of all instrument making in Czechoslovakia, and it remained so
for the duration of the Soviet Union. I have been told that the factories in all three cities had their own set of tooling, so that at least
in theory any of the three factories were able to make the same rotor brass instruments, and Amati also had piston making capability, as
well as woodwind manufacture.

During the Communist Era, apparently Josef Lidl was used mainly for making smaller brass, and their french horns in particular, which had
enjoyed great popularity in orchestras and bands prior to WWII. After the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989, the new democratic Czech Republic
sought to make reparations to families, and the Josef Lidl Company was restored to a descendant of Josef Lidl. Cerveny had no surviving family
that could be found to offer the company to, and Amati as such had not existed prior to the Communist Era, so Amati/Cerveny was privatized
under the same leadership, and that's how they became separate entities.

From my perspective, the two companies have struggled in an ever-changing world economy for years, continuing in an extremely labor-intensive
and not-very-profitable manufacturing business. Both companies were under the umbrella of parent holding comanies, and both managed to
enter bankruptcy proceedings between 2016-2019. Josef Lidl was first, and got bought and reconstituted under the Arnold Stoelzel Group of Wiesbaden, Germany, who also handles a wide array of musical products which I respect. Amati/Cerveny had it's own management difficulties,
and entered bankruptcy not much later.

What happened from this point is not entirely clear to me, and may never be. Apparently Amati/Cerveny did not own the buildings or property in Hradec Kralove, so Josef Lidl, needing more workers, took over the lease for the former Cerveny factory, and relocated the few workers that they
had to Hradec Kralove, to join the 30 former Cerveny workers that had just lost their jobs. I understand that what Josef Lidl had in Brno was moved to Hradec Kralove, and parts and tooling from Hradec Kralove that belonged to Cerveny went to Kraslice, where Amati/Cerveny reorganized.

There has been some confusion in relation to the Josef Lidl and Cerveny catalogs. Since they were once all a part of the same company, Josef Lidl
catalogs have several models listed that they are not making, and I would suspect the same of Amati/Cerveny. This is why there are designs that are so similar, and even the same model numbers in use. I know that Josef Lidl is working to upgrade designs and tooling for rotary valve models and is having success with this. At ITEC, I saw Cerveny's latest offerings, and they are offering several models that Lidl does not make. Cerveny's piston-valve model tubas and euphoniums are of particular note, as they seem to be excellent, particularly the silver-plated Emperor models. Cerveny has silver-plating and lacquer capabilities, and Josef Lidl instruments are lacquered.

I have had more than one conversation with Rob Phillips of Buckeye Brass in Ohio, who is representing Amati/Cerveny for the US, and I think we are
into mutual cooperation, and want to see everyone be successful in their manufacturing ventures. I am referring anyone that needs Amati/Cerveny parts or instruments to him, and if you are interested in the less-well-known Josef Lidl instruments, I am the US representative for that company.

At present, Lidl is delivering tubas and euphoniums to me in Soundline bags, which are similar to the ones Miraphone uses. This saves in shipping costs, cost of case, and ultimately what you pay. If a hard case is needed, it is probably less expensive for me to source an MTS case domestically
for your use. As of today, I have three Lidl BBb's in stock, four CC's, two F-tubas, three rotary euphoniums and four double horns.

I would like to thank Lee Stofer for his thorough explanation of the Lidl-Cerveny relationship. Very interesting indeed!

Here is link to Lidl on line information and catalogue. There are new designs as as ones similar to Cervany tubas.

https://www.josef-lidl.cz/

Thank-you, Chuck!
The Josef Lidl CEO told me an interesting story about the development of the Moldau BBb/CC. When going through old stuff at the Brno facility,
they found an old bell, one for which they found no tooling, which may well indicate that it was of pre WWII manufacture. They really liked the size and shape of this bell, so they digitized the dimensions, made new tooling, made and play-tested the new bell on the model 684, and this is how that new bell came to be. They also spent months with new tooling and development to translate the very successful Moldau BBb into CC, and the results speak for themselves. As I hear it, the Moldau with the 16.5" yellow brass bell is clean, clear and very responsive, very agile for a tuba that size. The 17.75" goldbrass bell adds a really deep and sensuous aspect to the tone quality. When taking the Moldau Deluxe into groups, other players notice the sound difference of the goldbrass bell immediately.

Along these lines, I am soon about to take delivery of a very old Josef Lidl kaiser BBb tuba, the only old Josef Lidl tuba in the USA that I know of. I'm rather curious to check this instrument out(no pun intended), and see what Lidl was building many years ago.

Josef Lidl is also working on a new, large professional F-tuba, which I hope to see before the end of this year.

Lee fills in a lot of blanks. The building on Pražská tř. In Hradec Králové used to have a sign that said V. F. Cerveny, which I found in a Google search some years ago. It looks like an office building with many unrelated tenants including unrelated retail on the first floor. If it houses a workshop, it must be quite small. The Lidl sign is on the fence that surrounds the parking lot, just where the Cerveny sign used to be, is surrounded by a number of other similar signs.

It never looked like the small but substantial Amati factory in Kraslice.

Rick “suspecting Cerveny was scaled more like Rudi Meinl or Hirsbrunner than Miraphone” Denney

A few tiny corrections and a little appendix to what Lee said:
the Soviet Union had little to do with manufacturing in (then) Czechoslovakia – the USSR fell apart in 1991 while the Velvet revolution (and subsequent privatization) started in 1989.

The Červený family did actually have a direct descendant by then – none other than the famous opera signer Soňa Červená, who passed away two months ago. I was fortunate enough to see her last year, when at age of 96 she was still performing. Her charisma radiated above the orchestra, the choir and the other soloists. A true star. Incredible person, if you want to read an interesting story (seems like a fairy tale really), it's on wiki. She just barely escaped East Berlin back then and was one of last people to cross the border to the West with nothing but a few personal things to start a new life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So%C5%88a ... rven%C3%A1

Lidl instruments are particularly known for great rotary flugelhorns, a semi-mandatory instrument for local trumpet players in brass bands. Amati is basically seen as a worse Červený, though the tuba models in particular were and are almost the same. A lot of vintage Amati tubas is still waiting to be found in schools, attics, etc. In fact, the country is full of traditional brass instruments – trumpets and flugelhorns, tenor and baritone horns, tubas and occasional helicon. The majority of these vintage instruments is pretty poor. A lot of them haven't been used for decades and likely won't ever be played again.

The vast majority of tuba players here keep a small (think 483-sized) tuba for marching and brass band music. It is not too heavy, fairly easy to move with, easy to hear over drums with the bell close to the player's ear and just about the right size to be able to (lightly) overblow it to get that extra punch for polkas.

A lot of former Amati/Červený/Lídl employees are now private repairmen spread across the country. Back then it was pretty easy for some tools to just go ... missing ... without anyone noticing, and then suddenly appear in someone's shop. Such was the communist era. The nineties were a little chaotic so things like that kept happening as people suddenly could make a living on their own and nobody really noticed some tools missing as more important things were going on. Quite unthinkable nowadays.

Some really interesting information from Wu299!