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I sold my sparkly Conn (36K body with a 40K four-valve valveset) sousaphone.

I've been WANTING a King, but didn't (know that I) have one...ie. "the forgotten King" (good title for a novel...??)

I have a satin-silver Conn 14K (aka "Pan American" body and bell and a rebuilt-better-than-new brass valve section for it (project not completed) but (again) I've been wishing for a KING.

I've been pulling some stuff down and (uh...) I found an old King body (probably quite early, because it has the rarely-seen LITTLE-OL'-BITTY bell screws and copper pistons) - an old-OLD (thick brass) regular 4/4-size regular 1250-size model/features (way-way-way before 2350 models were introduced). The circumferential ribs aren't bashed in and with it (guess... ) an old "titanic" (thick brass) "one-piece" (brazed together, NOT a flare lead-soldered to the elbow) King sousaphone bell.

The copper pistons fit the casings well enough that - were I to sell it - I would have absolutely no misgivings.

I even have a couple of cases - up there, though I'm going to TRY to fit in in a really compact sousaphone case (that I have downstairs...but not optimistic regarding that fit, as it's an old-old-old Holton case).

Anyway...It's a King. It's got silver spray paint all over the lacquered body, and (removable - probably with no un-soldering) dents...but (HEY !) I don't have to BUY it...IT'S HERE.

It takes the "old style" neck, but I have a couple of those...I probably don't have bits, but I know of a band director who has way-too-many King bits - and who would trade for a Conn bit or two.

My IDEAL sousaphone is a c. 1990's King FIBERGLASS sousaphone in really good shape with NOT-leaky valves...Maybe (??) I could work out a trade with someone.
my ideal sousaphone:
I'm thinking an early-ish 2380 (post-2370 model)...REAL fiberglass (NOT heavy resin) NO threaded ring between the brass and fiberglass, PEBBLE finish - not smooth - and comes apart simply with only two brass acorn screws). ...If not, I can deal with this thick brass one. It's really cool...and (again) PAID FOR (though I have NO idea WHEN - NOR from where).

OK...
I've been working hard, I'm down to one customer repair and round two from a middle school - whereby I worked really hard on a bunch of torn up stuff (new responsible band director whereby the previous one sort of just sat over in the corner in his chair behind his desk), and now they're handing me more. I've got some stuff to deliver too two or three schools, but I'm sort of waiting on one of the band directors to do something specific about something, and I'm waiting just a little bit for Mrs bloke to finish up a couple of horrible piccolos which really should have been thrown in the trash - yet she's just about got them playing. I'm grateful for the work, I need the money, but tomorrow I'm going to get this King sousaphone playing. I may not get every dent out of it, but by whatever hour I end up getting it to that point, it's going to make some noise.

I pulled it down from the attic to the workroom...
Each of the pistons are offering a bone-dry compression release, so that's a good sign.

I pushed out most of the body elbow and big first-branch dents. I did find ONE place (first branch) were the circumferential rib is pushed in (over about five inches). Thankfully, that rib really isn't folded (minor distortion - c. 1/4" deep). I guess I'll un-solder that rib (from the end, to a few inches past that area), magnet the branch smooth, and re-solder the rib. I have no interest in un-soldering this sousaphone body to affect dent removal. If any are stubborn, I'll anneal and magnet those places (all the way down to the 5th and 6th branches).

I'm pretty sure (shield logo...CHIME IN, King-o-philes...Is the "shield" King log from the 1950's-1960's ?) that the bell is considerably later, though (super-cool) it's a brazed (NOT lead-soldered elbow-to-flare...ie. "one-piece"-ish) bell, never refinished (as the lacquer-finish body - with silver paint over it - has never been refinished), and the bell is satin silver. It has some (from the past) half-@$$ repaired soft creases, which - though the bell is quite thick - should be easy enough to flatten out nicely (as "thick" promotes "easy"). Still, the bell is an H.N. White-made (Edna White) piece of equipment.

This is a 134XXX (no serial number cloaking, just lack of memory) serial number 1250, Which places it around the year 1930, which defines it as a Henderson White-made instrument.
ALL of the upper return bows are SLIDES. I could see - later - moving the thumb ring, shortening the #1 circuit, and rigging up a smooth-working upper #1 slide trigger (for 1-3 and 1-2-3)...and (of course) below that E-flat is "open", D is 2nd valve, and etc.
I think it's pretty cool... I might even see it live to be a hundred...so - the same year than none of us are allowed to have cars anymore, I (or whichever gov't official confiscates it from the Widow bloke - along with all of her other belongings and 67% of her on-hand food stuffs) will have a century-old King sousaphone.

Being a brass and woodwind musical instrument non-certified/non-licenced/non-affiliated/non-peer-reviewed "repair tech"nician (whereby these 32 syllables simply mean "I'm better'n you"), I was able to round up this stuff from various messy piles and boxes (pic below).
I'm pretty sure that the ONE tuning bit I found in a bin is the mouthPIECE bit...so I'll need to glean a mouthPIPE bit, somewhere...There are two friendly-to-bloke schools, which come to mind. I know they have several King spare sets (which I've laid eyes on, recently).

The bell flanges and screws are SMALL (and oem). The threads look to be something like 14 X 28 (not the Conn 1/4 X 20 thread), the bell screws have the King "look", but the knurled heads are only as large (diameter) as Jupiter bell screws, and thinner than Jupiter. They are short (the bell screw flanges resemble brace flanges in their appearance, are round, and less than an inch in diameter). ALL THREE flanges are there, and I actually found ONE ancient/original King screw to match in my junk...plus a second broken one. The very small tips on these screw could easily dent a male bell connector (if over-tightened). I'll either tap the flanges out to 1/4 X 20 (and use Jupiter screws) or I'll replace everything with the larger/later genuine King flanges and beefy screws.

...so I rounded up all of these necessities and (again) am only lacking a "King bit #2".

OK...I spent some time repairing that lower mouthpipe (two "minor" creases, but super-thick old-school metal).

Here it is (playing) with all the dents out of the body (which - as I reported earlier - someone painted with rattle-can silver paint, and the satin-silver (gold wash interior) bell, which I've not yet straightened out.

stuff:
- It weighs 30 lbs...no, not "bull-crap" 30 lbs., but ACTUALLY 30 lbs.
- The bell-to-body fit is precise (unlike most sousaphones made today). I'm thinking that it adds to the resonance.
- Resonance, response, intonation: ALL EXCEED my hopes and expectations...It is absolutely marvelous !!!

left to do to the body:
- mouthpipe receiver braces (I have pre-bent Jupiter rods and socket-flanges, so I'll probably use those)
- #1 slide tubing and bow are distressed. I'm going to scrounge some GOOD King (inside slide) tubing and an Olds (same size as King) narrow bow, and replace one inside tube and the slide bow.
- iron out the bell, and clean it up
- I may put YET another (not too heavy coat) of silver PAINT on the body, because they now have silver paints which actually LOOK LIKE silver plating.
I WOULD HAVE considered using Nikolas translucent metalic silver lacquer additive, but lacquer over enamel is usually a disaster.
- I'm getting by with a King #2 bit and a Jupiter bit...I guess I need to round up a King #1 bit.
- I would LIKE to find THREE GOOD vintage King finger buttons (with pearls). I could only find ONE (new) generic "Allied" (Olds) finger button, so I rounded up three REYNOLDS buttons (which I've been "savin' back"). The Reynolds buttons (sorta "York-shaped") BARELY clear the brass "donut wall" on the King top valve caps.

I DID go ahead and tap those old-old-school bell screw flanges out to 1/4 x 20, and I AM using Jupiter bell screws (whereby the knurling and head diameter are remarkably similar to the original - small - bell screws).

It tunes @ A=440 with the main slide pulled out as shown (c. 1-3/8")...This room (a/c has been off, all day) is currently about 80° F, so I can imagine (c. 73°) in more; and outdoors - in chilly weather (ex: graveside, dumb, too-far-north Mardi Gras parades, etc.) - the slide in all the way.

weird:
I'm seeing old silver plating on the body (when I rub through the paint - removing dents - and old lacquer in other places. I'm wondering if some of it was lacquer finish, but maybe it's just some of the valveset parts which were lacquered. If I could find someone to strip it (as OTC strippers are now not worth a sh!t) I might consider doing that.

Symphony orchestras - traditionally - open their first concerts of the year with (not printed in the program) the SSB. I'm not feeling particularly patriotic these days, but might take this along so that - unlike the cellos - I can stand up and play...Again: The intonation (hell...It's a KING...duh! ) is quite good (actually, just about "excellent" - particularly considering that I'm not doing any slide-pulling and there are only three buttons to mash).

I LIKE what I paid for this thing (probably no more than a couple hundred bucks - around 20 - 25 years ago.


This body was pretty mushed up...much worst than the (likely: later-vintage) bell...Were I even more of a show-off, you would have seen "before" pics.


...so IMAGINE a school being outfitted with sousaphones of this quality (and build-quality), enhanced further with a 3-valve COMPENSATING system (or an upper #1 slide thumb trigger - for B/E natural 1-2-3), and magnificent "false tone" low-range pitches (such as are offered by this instrument)...
ONE set of instruments (forget this "concert" and "marching" instruments jazz), to be used INDOORS and OUTDOORS, and which offer a magnificent sound, great intonation and - with great false tones - fully chromatic.

I also have this option, but neither the intonation nor the sound are as good.

The rain catcher look is is tempting…

If going rain catcher, you’ll need the 22” bell.

It's the 19-inch bell that I put together as an alternate for my 1958 Besson compensating E-flat tuba.
When I'm playing in combos, some of the guys like it better - particularly if we have a low ceiling in the bandstand area, because they can hear it better. If we're hired to play in a park pavilion, I'll bring the recording bell for the E-flat...

... but - last Mardi Gras - I realized that I had to borrow a freaking sousaphone (DUH !!! I SOLD mine. ). The one I borrowed was leaky, and just about wore me out. Ever since then, I've realized I needed one but didn't want to actually buy one. I can't believe I got my wish, and I also got the brand that I was wanting as well... and even the vintage... whereas the consolation prize would have been a 1990s fiberglass version of the same thing.

Seems like it could benefit from a shoulder plate like on my Conn.

Shoulder plates really don't accomplish much of anything - other than adding even more weight. I don't know whether Conn quit putting those on (beginning with Abilene production, maybe...??) because they cost them money or because those (albeit rounded) sheet metal edges were deemed to be dangerous. They still only contact a very small spot on the shoulder. Even shoulder pads add weight and end up contacting basically the same small spot. If someone was carrying a steel pipe - that weighed around 30 lb - on shoulder for several hours each day - with little breaks in between carries, either wrapping a little layer of foam rubber around it or welding on a little semicircle of steel with less of a curvature to the part that was resting on the shoulder, it wouldn't make it feel like it weighed any less.

The worst thing that people do is to turn their instruments sideways, orient the upper mouthpipe and tuning bits to the wrong direction, and have some of the neck area vertebrae take some of the weight off the shoulder. People who do that often pay dearly - beginning a few years later - with arthritis in their neck. The best strategy is to rest it oriented front to back on that muscle that spans the shoulder, let that muscle be sore for two or three days, treat that with aspirin (if aspirin is not harmful to a particularly individual), and the muscle will get stronger in just a few days and there will be no more pain. The other strategy is to try to find a 1990s King fiberglass - sousaphone which is probably the lightest BB-flat sousaphone ever made, and which also offers really good intonation - because it's a King. If someone's interested in finding one of those 30-year-old King fiberglass sousaphones, I'm thinking the way to keep it as lightweight as absolutely possible would be to use a Kelly lexan mouthpiece.

As far as this 30 lb King sousaphone is concerned, I could see myself marching in a 30 minute Mardi Gras parade once a year followed up by a 1 hour blast of a bunch of New Orleans funky brass band tunes at a party, playing it at some stand-up outdoor gig at a park playing either New Orleans brass band music or dixieland music, or even a sit-down community band concert that might last an hour. I think I could do any of those without the instrument feeling like it's going to crush my shoulder. (or maybe just beginning to, LOL...) Were someone able to coerce me into working on a halftime show carrying that thing around, I'd have to go through the three-day soreness routine, and I might also be scolded because everyone else would be holding their instrument sideways and resting half the weight of the sousaphone on their neck vertebrae - so my appearance wouldn't match.

Talking about soreness somewhere in the upper body, I'm heading out right now to iron out the light creases in this thick bell, and then I'm going to carefully buff off the tarnish.. before the temperature creeps out of the 70's into the 80s.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 7:37 am The worst thing that people do is to turn their instruments sideways, orient the upper mouthpipe and tuning bits to the wrong direction, and have some of the neck area vertebrae take some of the weight off the shoulder. People who do that often pay dearly - beginning a few years later - with arthritis in their neck.

^^ Me, from circa 8th grade until 12th grade. Many chiropractor visits, physical therapy, etc. and I still have a messed-up neck and shoulder. I blame incorrectly holding the sousaphone during my growth spurt years. It wasn't until I got to college that someone was like "hey, you're holding that thing sideways." My HS band director never mentioned it or told me any different, and I was in constant pain as a kid. I just thought that was how it was supposed to be.

Yeah, I don't expect for that issue to ever be addressed or solved.

Anyway, I'm pretty jazzed about having a sousaphone again for when I'm called, not having to scramble and borrow one, and having just the brand that I was hoping to have. I take back what I said about fiberglass and brass sousaphones sounding the same. This thick brass bell - even with a little creases in it and stuff has that sound that the the (actually: plastic) bells just can't quite produce... and - thankfully - this one doesn't have any after-ring.

All of that having been said, I would look long and hard at an underpriced 1990s King fiberglass sousaphone (really light, really easy to service, and even the fiberglass section connectors were made of aluminum) in good condition... or needing repair, yet with really good valves.

Something that has always puzzled me about King sousaphones is how the 1st valve pitches are in tune, the 2-3 pitches aren't particularly flat (other than 4th partial - which is typically flat with that valve combination on brass instruments) and yet 1-3 isn't particularly sharp. How do they do that?

If you need a sousaphone for a gig in DC metro, you always have mine.

I'll even deliver it.

Provided we get two tickets to the event with swanky eats and open bar!

I've actually done a pair of gigs like that in DC, but it's been nearly 40 years. There's some historic rectangular shaped hotel downtown (??) where we played for the DC area Jazz Club one evening, and then the next evening we played for a huge benefit where our lp's were giving away as favors. (The lp sales to the charity helped fund the recording session.)

I had Jupiter mouthpipe receiver brace parts in stock, so I cut them to fit this King and installed them last night...(It "has no effect on the sound" , but it takes a bit of monkeying around to get those two brace assemblies lined up with each other BOTH vertically AND colinear-ly.

...Of course, I should have ordered the "double helix" bracing system from Conn-Selmer (and waited ten months for them to supply PART of it), because (just as with all the sixteen-year-old school children) I'm sure that I'll be forcing the neck out of the receiver - over-and-over-and-over, without loosening the tension screw - until I break the braces, and twist BOTH the upper and lower mouthpipe tubes. Anyway - so far - this is proving to be an "absolutely-no-new-money-spent" sousaphone. Notice the "every upper return is actually a SLIDE" thing, and you can also catch a glimpse of one of the Reynolds finger buttons (just BARELY narrow enough to clear that outside donut wall).





...so - with this bell stating its manufacturing location as Cleveland, Ohio, it's surely pre-1966 and (probably?) pre-Seeburg Corporation...(ie. Edna White-owned H. N. White Co.) I've heard that very early Seeburg instruments still bore "H. N. White Co." or "H. N. White Co., a division of the Seeburg Corp...(??)

That is a nice-looking horn, age and wear notwithstanding. Back in HS in the 70s we had bright silver King sousaphones for parades and half-time shows. We used duct-taped fiberglass Conns for practice that I didn't care for, but it was very nice playing on the Kings. As much as I liked the Besson 3v comps we played in concert band, I thought the Kings played better.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:15 am (The lp sales to the charity helped fund the recording session.)

I have one!

Those recordings are some of the best one-take wonders out there!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:52 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 8:15 am (The lp sales to the charity helped fund the recording session.)

I have one!

Those recordings are some of the best one-take wonders out there!

Apparently, they returned to D.C. a year after I quit the band...
That time (not that historic hotel, but) a Ramada Inn in Bethesda.

(I was searching for the WAPO review of that FIRST performance for the Potomac River Jazz Club, but google only found this one.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... ab74d822f/

Google also found this:



I'm thinking that may (??) have been the last domestic festival I played with them - just before our European tour (same summer) - after which I resigned (as I felt - along with one of the other not-wealthy band members) that too much tour-earned money money had been spent "as if a vacation", rather than "having some decent dough in our pockets - once home again").

OK...I slicked out the bell (sorta halfway between a quick-job and bloke's best)...
...a reference to the old 1960's Sears catalogs, showing choices of "good", "better" and "Sears Best"

I was able to date the bell (serial number in the 374XXX series) - to 1960, so Edna White still owned the company when this bell was made.
They bell and body have been mated for quite some time as there were three small holes drilled into the tenon (which would have lined up perfectly with the tiny 1930's old-style King bell screws), and this also explains the silver enamel paint on the body...so (obviously) I bought the bell and body together - whenever I bought them. I straightened the bell tenon a little bit, so - though still much more snug than new and more-recent-vintage ones - the bell slips in place quickly/easily.

Whether-or-not I take this bell to the next level depends on how far I would punch the (remaining) daylights out of some possible future drunk - who might bump into it or (basically, they would be going to the hospital in an ambulance) throwing a beer can into it.

Once I get the #1 slide working better, I'm going to call this project "done, for now"...maybe (or not) some more silver paint, but I believe I would like to RID the body of the silver paint and do a nice fresh job with (again) some Nikolas #2105 lacquer with opaque metallic silver dye in it.






admission:
When I was playing at a wedding reception (c. 21 years old - jazz band, poolside at the father-of-the-bride's home) I tossed the (drunk) bride's brother into the pool - who had picked up my sousaphone (while we were taking a short break) and set it down too hard. The father of the bride had a good laugh, and rewarded me with two bottles of Veuve Cliequot Brut champagne.

update:

A friend of mine has a half-full can of the paint-stripper-which-has-been-taken-away-from-us-by-our-rulers.
I'm going to see about cleaning off the old silver paint; that should be enough.