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I seem to be what has been referred as by others, more often than I would like, as a “Huffer and Puffer”. I think this means I breath a lot and probably over blow. Now, in my defense a little, I was the only tubist in bands that had, for example, as many as 10 trumpets, 8 trombonists, 6 horns, 4 baritone/euphoniums, and lots of woodwinds. The director would insist on more tuba, over and over, lol. My question is what is the best way to practice longer phrasing and better tone? I am playing my long tones for about 8 beats at 60 BPM at mf, now, should I be able to get longer notes? BTW, by volume control I mean amount, in liters per second, of air movement.

Thanks

Likely there are much better things than this, but this is what I do, and it's not particularly interesting nor rewarding:

I set up a tuner and a metronome. The metronome clicks at 60 beats a minute. I start on F at the bottom of the staff and crescendo from very soft to very loud in the middle, diminuendo back to where I started, and try to pace the crescendos and diminuendos. I'm also listening and glancing at the tuner to try to control the pitch while I'm doing those things. It's hard. I do expanding intervals, so the next pitch is G flat above F. The next pitch after that is E natural below F, the next pitch is G, then E flat, then A flat, then D. I work my way up to the top to a sort of high pitch and down to a multiple ledger lines pitch. Sometimes I'm too tired to work my way back to the F or don't have time. It's pretty grueling. It pays off at rehearsals, performances, and when practicing actual music. You'll see a difference in a couple of weeks, you'll see more difference in a couple of months, and you'll see more difference after a year.

You could try also stretching it later out to more beats. 16 is difficult in the low range, 12 is more realistic.

That is a great exercise and I should do it, if I can ever settle down enough to practice just one instrument (haha.)

There is also the parallel concept of percent chops vs percent air --- I helped one horn player who complained of "tone problems" by telling him to try the range, on a single pitch that was easy for him, of "most air and least chops possible" to the other end, which is "most chops and least air possible" to get the pitch, and find that place between the ends where he liked his tone. He found that helpful, and it is similar, but a more intellectual / analytical approach, to what bloke said. I think once that point of tone is found, it can be used as a starting point for bloke's exercise, in which one would want to maintain the tone throughout the dynamic range.

Arnold Jacob’s story is an inspiration, too.

Great question, and very helpful advice already.
You might need to get used to perceptions of low oxygen levels in your blood, too, and develop an increased tolerance thereof.
I understand this would be a psychological phenomenon rather than a physiological one, but am prepared to stand corrected.

I´ve become rather lazy on this, and apnea divers will have more sophisticated techniques, but here goes an exercise one might call "planned breathing":

Set your inner metronome to a slow beat around 60.
Predetermine a number of beats you want to allow yourself to completely inhale and exhale (i.e. full range of motion of your breathing apparatus).
Neither even numbers nor symmetry required here, on the contrary!

Start easy, for example 4 counts in, 7 counts out.
As you get comfortable with that setting, vary those counts and increase them over time.

Try to maintain constant air speed throughout any given breathing motion.
As exhalation gets longer (slower air speeds), your MIND will have to get used to the sensation of seemingly lower blood oxygen levels to overcome the "urge to re-inhale".

To enhance training effect and to get closer to the actual playing situation, form an embouchure for controlled air resistance.
This will be most beneficial if you use a candle at home as a source of feedback:
Try to create a steady column of air to let that flame glow horizontally for the duration of exhaling.
Increase distance to the flame for further challenge.

(The latter is more of an embouchure / control training thing, but seems like an effective use of practising time.

If I understand what is being suggested, I need to train anaerobically? Kind of like when I was a competitive swimmer, swimming underwater as many laps as possible?

Thom wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:08 am If I understand what is being suggested, I need to train anaerobically? Kind of like when I was a competitive swimmer, swimming underwater as many laps as possible?

Sort of. Yes, you need to learn to play with little air left in your lungs. But it's not anaerobic training.

I also wonder whether, because you always had to play loud in band, you skew all your dynamics loud (i.e., your mp would be my f, etc...). There's a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is also pretty static - long breaths, long tones. I would suspect that your technique in playing musical lines at soft dynamics isn't well developed, and so you unconsciously play louder because it's more comfortable for you.

When I was in college, I did a festival with mostly European and Japanese players. They could all play plenty loud when asked, but in general they didn't. They played shockingly soft (to my ears). So I had to force myself to do the same, and it was very very instructive. I had a lot of discomfort doing things like the Arnold quintet thinking there's no way I have enough breath support to make this sound clean. But, lo and behold, I did.

So. All that to say. I would take Bordogni etudes and play them pp. Make yourself play them quietly to extend your phrases. And while doing that, get used to playing to the end of the phrase/your lung capacity. And if there's a 4-bar section you can do in one breath at pp, then try it at p or mp. See if you can still make it.

The hope in that would be to both train you to play at the end of your lung capacity, but also develop the dynamic flexibility to use less air on a phrase if there is no option to breathe in the middle of it.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:25 am

Thom wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:08 am If I understand what is being suggested, I need to train anaerobically? Kind of like when I was a competitive swimmer, swimming underwater as many laps as possible?

Sort of. Yes, you need to learn to play with little air left in your lungs. But it's not anaerobic training.

I also wonder whether, because you always had to play loud in band, you skew all your dynamics loud (i.e., your mp would be my f, etc...). There's a lot of good advice here, but a lot of it is also pretty static - long breaths, long tones. I would suspect that your technique in playing musical lines at soft dynamics isn't well developed, and so you unconsciously play louder because it's more comfortable for you.

When I was in college, I did a festival with mostly European and Japanese players. They could all play plenty loud when asked, but in general they didn't. They played shockingly soft (to my ears). So I had to force myself to do the same, and it was very very instructive. I had a lot of discomfort doing things like the Arnold quintet thinking there's no way I have enough breath support to make this sound clean. But, lo and behold, I did.

So. All that to say. I would take Bordogni etudes and play them pp. Make yourself play them quietly to extend your phrases. And while doing that, get used to playing to the end of the phrase/your lung capacity. And if there's a 4-bar section you can do in one breath at pp, then try it at p or mp. See if you can still make it.

The hope in that would be to both train you to play at the end of your lung capacity, but also develop the dynamic flexibility to use less air on a phrase if there is no option to breathe in the middle of it.

I think you hit the nail on the head, as it were , when you point out that I may have my dynamics off. Not only do I play loudly because I find it comfortable when I am miss playing parts, but my hearing loss, 40% in the left ear, 60% in the right ear,(Unfortunately, hearing aids do not help and I have tried the fancy ones that cost $10,000 plus.), therefore, when I think I am playing mp it is more than likely f. I am practicing everything at p or pp, now. Thanks for the suggestion.

Thom wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:26 am I think you hit the nail on the head, as it were , when you point out that I may have my dynamics off. Not only do I play loudly because I find it comfortable when I am miss playing parts, but my hearing loss, 40% in the left ear, 60% in the right ear,(Unfortunately, hearing aids do not help and I have tried the fancy ones that cost $10,000 plus.), therefore, when I think I am playing mp it is more than likely f. I am practicing everything at p or pp, now. Thanks for the suggestion.

That is fascinating -- the 2nd trumpet in my brass quintet has quite a bit of hearing loss, also not really corrected with hearing aids, and I have noticed that he plays louder than he used to, and with a brassier tone. Probably just trying to hear himself, and the increase in high frequencies (brassiness,) he probably can't hear either.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:02 am

Thom wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:26 am I think you hit the nail on the head, as it were , when you point out that I may have my dynamics off. Not only do I play loudly because I find it comfortable when I am miss playing parts, but my hearing loss, 40% in the left ear, 60% in the right ear,(Unfortunately, hearing aids do not help and I have tried the fancy ones that cost $10,000 plus.), therefore, when I think I am playing mp it is more than likely f. I am practicing everything at p or pp, now. Thanks for the suggestion.

That is fascinating -- the 2nd trumpet in my brass quintet has quite a bit of hearing loss, also not really corrected with hearing aids, and I have noticed that he plays louder than he used to, and with a brassier tone. Probably just trying to hear himself, and the increase in high frequencies (brassiness,) he probably can't hear either.

Yes, the more I think about it, that is the problem I am facing, thanks.