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https://www.facebook.com/groups/3756496 ... 7395232324

I realize not everyone has FB or is a member of the group it was posted in, so I took some screenshots and saved the pics. Being sold by Christopher Messinger for $12,500.

I wonder if that started life as a top action horn.

All those nice bows, now telescoped up inside each other.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:05 pm All those nice bows, now telescoped up inside each other.



York.jpg

What's the alternative? I'm having trouble visualizing.

Cut and re-taper. There’s tubing inside of tubing there, which could lead to some weird issues.

The way the inner bows and branches were done, in general, makes the horn look a little odd.

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:48 pm What's the alternative? I'm having trouble visualizing.

Either leave it alone (what the hell's wrong with BBb anyway, if a horn plays great?), or re-taper, or make suitable bows from scratch which won't be such an acoustical nightmare.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:46 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:48 pm What's the alternative? I'm having trouble visualizing.

Either leave it alone (what the hell's wrong with BBb anyway, if a horn plays great?), or re-taper, or make suitable bows from scratch which won't be such an acoustical nightmare.

I see what you're saying now—the bows are pretty starkly different sizes because of the cut, right? I thought you were more talking about the way the tuba was wrapped.

I have played some cut horns that have turned out very nice, even if the means of cutting aren’t ideal. I have also tried some cut horns that are absolute dogs. The one cut York 6/4 CC I tried was fantastic in every way!

LargeTuba wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:52 pm I have played some cut horns that have turned out very nice, even if the means of cutting aren’t ideal. I have also tried some cut horns that are absolute dogs. The one cut York 6/4 CC I tried was fantastic in every way!

Pure luck then. And what a shame for the horns he turned into junk.

If I had the disposable money this horn would be mine. Weirdness and all. I’d LOVE a big horn like this.

I toyed with the idea of trying to buy it but I just don’t NEED it.

Right?

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:05 pm If I had the disposable money this horn would be mine. Weirdness and all. I’d LOVE a big horn like this.

I toyed with the idea of trying to buy it but I just don’t NEED it.

Right?

I hope it plays well, but I have no desire to own it. Well, if I could buy only the bell, that might be interesting.

Aside from the concern about the surgical transition procedure this horn underwent, I’m also thinking that the valve layout is a bit high in terms of being comfortable to hold. Seems like it might be top heavy when in playing position.

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:09 pmthe surgical transition

Heh-heh. C'mon, man: no politics.

I do think $12,500 is really steep for a cut horn even with that name on the bell.

Cool factor aside, and concerns completely valid, I just don’t need it.

How are these fit together if there is such a big difference in diameter between the cut bows? Just lots o' solder at the ferrules?

While we are picking this thing apart, I’d also like to see a pic from the side showing how “thick” this tuba is from front to back at the valve cluster.

Looks like that fourth valve slide is a challenger for the Conn 5xJ for prominence.

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:24 pm How are these fit together if there is such a big difference in diameter between the cut bows? Just lots o' solder at the ferrules?

Search through and find Wade's series on rebuilding his Rusk-cut Holton 345 and what he did to make it more to his liking. This would give you a view on how Mr. Rusk shortened up a BBb to CC.

That bell looks to have been trimmed down from its original 22” diameter.

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:49 pm I see what you're saying now—the bows are pretty starkly different sizes because of the cut, right? I thought you were more talking about the way the tuba was wrapped.

The way Rusk did it (cutting and then telescoping ends of bows inside each other) creates a stairstep interior wall which is not conducive to formation of standing waves inside the instrument. A smooth interior bore is what makes that possible.

I thought the Rusk cut horns were more well-regarded. I am glad that I stirred the tuba pot a bit!

Isn't the BMB 6/4 CC based on a Rusk-cut Holton, including the big gap at the bottom from the shortened bows?

Kinda like how JB copied the YxB-621 series, with its weird slide layout and everything. Manufacturing or production shortcuts that were necessary at the time and then carried over to the copier, who copies those shortcuts even though they aren't necessary now.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 9:03 am I thought the Rusk cut horns were more well-regarded. I am glad that I stirred the tuba pot a bit!.

He was (one of?) the first people to really take on the "cut a 6/4 to CC" projects, and to any sort of scale as well. My impression is that his tubas were generally well-regarded at the time, because they filled a gap in availability that otherwise had no options. That is, there really weren't any other 6/4 CC options (or very, very few), so by default, his was well regarded because it existed.

Tuba players 30(?) years ago were like "Are there any 6/4 CC tubas?"
Si, si... this-a one:


That's not to say that some of them weren't good, I'm sure some of them were. And I'm sure most if not all of them sounded great... but the intonation, ergonomics, and other stuff... again, if it's the only one that exists, you'll put up with more stuff than if you have options.

These days, there are lots of European and Asian 6/4 CC tubas to choose from, and the idea of "cutting an old 6/4 BBb to CC" isn't as attractive as it used to be. Unless you're Wade, and you want to/can/will take it all apart and rebuild it. And even then, some things can't be fully corrected, just bettered.

Also, I always associated Bob Rusk with 5th valves added in the leadpipe... the York shown here doesn't have that.