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For five-valve, non-compensating instruments, how do YOU finger low multiple-ledger-lines-below-the-staff/near-pedal E♭/D♭/A♭/G♭ on YOUR primary five-valve CC/BB♭/F/E♭ (respectively) tuba? Assume the fifth valve is a long whole step.

These notes:

I don't play many double low C sharps on my B-flat tuba, but - being a non-86/88 Miraphone rotary - the 5th valve slide is immediately adjacent to the 1st valve slide, so I would pull it to tune that pitch. It seems as though I can get by without pulling it though, when I actually do play that pitch due to an acoustical quirk which seems to allow that pitch to be played in tune without adjustment with that first valve combination you offered above. For the half step just BELOW - on the B-flat tuba (which it is C natural), if I don't pull the fifth slide a lot, it's stinky sharp. My only other five valve is the F cimbasso, and I have a second slide thumb trigger lever on that instrument right where my left hand holds the instrument.

When playing the cimbasso, I have to practice passages ahead of time that feature the low G-sharp/A-flat, because I'm not accustomed to a five valve F instrument with a 2nd slide trigger nearly as much as I am a six valve F instrument. With six valves, it's 6-2-3-4 with no adjustment.

In other words, a five valve system usually won't play that pitch in tune without some adjustment. If it's loud - and I want the cimbasso to be in tune so as to make the trombone chords ring - I had better adjust the length of the instrument with that thumb trigger.

In my experience, your 345 tends to overcompensate on most instruments, and the 134 thing would surely require some epic pull way more than my second slide trigger adjustment.

I'm not feeling my best this morning and I'm a little foggy-headed, so I hope I'm thinking correctly and that this reply makes sense.

On my 5-valve non-compensating F tuba, Ab is good with 134. Bb is good with 54. A natural is too flat with 234, so it's usually 524 plus the MTS trigger. B natural is nice with 24 and MTS trigger.

All that probably means I keep 2 shorter than bloke does, and 3 longer (so that 23 is right). And maybe 4 is longer, too? It's good for low C and bottom line G. Cb and Gb get the MTS trigger with 24.

Honestly, I think it varies horn-to-horn for me, and situation to situation.

Some tubas just line up better with some fingering patterns than others, and as you noticed, there are options. Sometimes, the 5th valve options respond great, sometimes they don't. Sometimes lipping a note higher/lower is easier than slide pulling (I hate slide pulling!). Sometimes, it depends on how fast I'm playing too (am I sitting on that low Eb for a while? how loudly? or is it part of a moving line and is just one note along the way?)

Sorry, that's a non-answer. But I didn't vote, either. Hrmm... that's a concept -- an uninformed voter NOT voting.

This was spurred by my Yamaclone 621 F tuba, which requires the more unusual (to me) 134 fingering. Most CCs I've owned, including my current Eastman, do well with either 1245 or 345 depending on volume and local intonation situation. I was talking to someone who learned 134 as the "standard" fingering for that pitch, so I was just curious what was mostly in use.

Of course it obviously depends on the tuba and situation, hence my conditional words like "primary."

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(Secret real answer: 1st valve false tone)

Brett is - of course - correct in that it varies from instrument to instrument. I don't know how the heck I lucked out, but the F cimbasso that I built offers a rock solid 234 low A, whereas - with most of the others that I've played - it's horribly flat, and the super-expensive European-made wildly-out-of-tune ones (with main tuning slide triggers) only offer triggers that go out, and not in.

I don't know how close your Chinese instrument plays compared to a Japan made Yamaha, but - of all of the piston F tubas that I've encountered - I would probably reluctantly choose the 621 Yamaha, but I would need to play a bunch of them to find the least quirky one... and being that I wouldn't consider paying the price for a new one and that new ones are not going to be multiples in one store and used ones only are offered from time to time, I require so many conditions for such a reluctant purchase that it's never ever going to happen.

I put 345. Both my horns respond best with that combination.

However, my piston Willson F, MRP and HB both liked 134 better for response.

Depends horn to horn, as stated above.

No arguing - and knowing that I'm being redundant, I still suggest that - for most 5-valve tubas - the ideal length is somewhere between 1-2 and 3, and some sort of slide pull or triggering lands absolutely in the sweet spot.

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bloke wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:09 am I don't play many double low C sharps on my B-flat tuba, but - being a non-86/88 Miraphone rotary - the 5th valve slide is immediately adjacent to the 1st valve slide, so I would pull it to tune that pitch. It seems as though I can get by without pulling it though, when I actually do play that pitch due to an acoustical quirk which seems to allow that pitch to be played in tune without adjustment with that first valve combination you offered above.

Sounds like someone has been experimenting with the magic dent theory.
This is all I can add to the discussion. I am one of those weirdos with an old style 5-valve Mirafone.

F tuba: 345 push in 3rd slide
CC tuba: 345, be a hair pulled out on 4, but less pulled out than on D

I feel the 134 is sharp and I don’t get as good of center.
It is more common for me (and many) to be sharp and not get down to the center of the more than Vice versa

Casca Grossa wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:20 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:09 am I don't play many double low C sharps on my B-flat tuba, but - being a non-86/88 Miraphone rotary - the 5th valve slide is immediately adjacent to the 1st valve slide, so I would pull it to tune that pitch. It seems as though I can get by without pulling it though, when I actually do play that pitch due to an acoustical quirk which seems to allow that pitch to be played in tune without adjustment with that first valve combination you offered above.

Sounds like someone has been experimenting with the magic dent theory.
This is all I can add to the discussion. I am one of those weirdos with an old style 5-valve Mirafone.

well...My tubas aren't dented, so I guess not (??)
possibility:
I tend to be "generous" with both 4th and 5th circuit lengths' default settings - as it's quite easy to play sharp in that range (particularly when some ignoramus composer/arranger requests those pitches as sudden/loud "buttons"), so that may (??) explain why that particular pitch (topic of the thread) lands nicely (on my somewhat-new-to-me huge B-flat) with the 1245 choice...

...I tend to set the #4 circuit so-as 2-4 B-natural is only a couple of cents sharp (with no adjusting), I place C (not with 4th valve, but) with 1-3 (and a semi-epic #1 pull), "low" F (same 4th circuit setting) is only a couple or cents low and - given some gas - sets very nicely on the money YET (me: believing that most people's ears are accustomed to "stretch" piano tuning) being ever-so-slightly flat (in that range - ok...UNLESS the bass 'bone and I are giving F's in octaves a lot of gas...ie. ff - fff) doesn't seem to harm much of anything.

bloke "ever the tuning nerd, as I realize 'tuning' as a personal weakness, and tend to suspect that some others - who also suffer from this weakness - are just a bit Dunning–Kruger-ish, regarding this."

134 and pull either 1 or 4 depending on the next pitch.

345 has never been a combo I’ve used for low Eb. Almost always too flat. Easier to adjust 134 depending on how much throttle is being applied as well, since (for me) hammering notes in that range can move them around a bit.

First valve, pull/push if needed. So much easier and doesn't sound that different, if at all.

I´d always expect variants of "best practice slide operation" among specimen of equal valve setup.

I own two horns with "elongated 5th valve on right hand thumb"-setup.
On the Willson BBb, 235 works PERFECTLY for Contra-E and B-natural above that.
345 will provide well-in-tune Db.
1345 is on the low end of Contra-C but works well enough if the note is short

3"-pull on 4th slide yields very good 2345 Cs and 12345 B-naturals.

On the ADAMS F, 235 is too low for bottom-line Gb and perfect for the B-natural below that.
Slots are wide enough for in-tune Gb using 24, so that´s no problem.
Consequently, 1345 is WAY too low for Contra-A to the point one doesn´t want to use it in passing.

I still wonder if it might pay off to have the 5th valve shortened a bit.

I put 1245 in the poll because that's what usually works for me. Decided to try 345 on the low Eb in Tod und Verklärung last night at rehearsal and it slotted perfectly. Go figure

345 for low Eb on a CC tuba. Where I typically leave my slides puts this spot on for pitch, and both 3 and 4 are easily adjusted on the fly. This is a note a check when buying a horn. If it isn't *right there* I move on and say "I really like you but I just want to be friends".

... I wish I'd known - decades ago - how many problems a really nice five valve B flat tuba would solve - or never cause.
OK...yes: My buzz does have to be a little bit more accurate I'm playing in the upper part of the staff or above it, but I've quickly become accustomed to that.

That having been said, maybe there weren't that many great 5 valve B flats during those times...(??)... but even fewer particularly good ones in C. The one that I have - which I've wished to have for about a decade, was only designed about a decade ago.

We all encounter a whole lot of the same music and the same low range pitches, but a contrabass tuba - which is a whole step shorter - requires more cylindrical tubing to play the same pitches in the very low range whereby the second partial is extended downward...
...this: while composers/arangers - who compose at the keyboard or on their computer keyboard, where these pitches effortlessly jump out of the speaker or headphones - write more and more double low pitches for us to play.

We all know that models vary, but even though we all tend to think of a B flat instrument as slower responding, those pitches jump out much more quickly and easily when less cylindrical tubing is involved, at least with this particular B-flat instrument that I'm using these days. It's nice to not have to get such a "head start" when playing them, and even being able to play them repeatedly with more ease...

... even something like three/four-ledger-lines "low G or F" - repeatedly playing these pitches in triplets at a fast tempo: easier...
... and the C instrument pitch which most are discussing in this thread: far more easily accessible, when the only circuits engaged are 5 and 4.

I normally use 1245. But it really depends on how the intonation of it sits with the group I'm playing with.

Also, if I'm playing with a youngster who is just finding pedal notes; I will stay up and properly support the group because the youngsters always try to play everything down there (usually poorly).

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On CC I use 1245, on F I use 134