Why do some Flugelhorns play flat?

[2nd tenor]

The Band that I play in has players with a mix of capabilities, some are simply newly competent and the skill range then spreads upwards to some who are very able / graduate level; our training band is there for those who don’t yet have quite the necessary skills. We have a few people who can play flugelhorn - on at least two different flugelhorns - and they all seem to play flat, the flatness is not identified by me but by someone nearby who has an expert ear. Whether they are equally out of tune I do not know … perhaps best not to risk up-set by asking too closely.

Is the Flugelhorn fiendishly hard to play properly? The (flugelhorn) players are otherwise more than competent brass players so what might be going wrong?

My thanks in anticipation of your responses.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[Mary Ann]

It could be that the band they are playing with is playing extremely sharp and unless you prove with a tuner who is doing what, you might be trying to correct the wrong thing. Or you have a player who plays at the bottom of the slot.

[Paulver]

As a former band director, I can relate to the intonation issues with flugelhorns. Obviously, some flugels are better than others, but in general, there were always intonation problems with the ones we had. That said, I was dealing with kids with no experience on them, and I didn't have a whole lot of experience or knowledge regarding them, either. We only used them with jazz band on a few numbers over the years. The two we had in our inventory were bought long before I arrived on the job, and there were no mouthpieces with them. They were notoriously difficult to tune and keep in tune. I had a friend who is a pro trumpet player, and had extensive experience with flugels, take them home and play them for an extended period. He hated both of them!!!!!! Eventually, I put them back on the shelves to gather more dust!

After reading the previous post about the mouthpieces...........I wish I'd known that way back when!!! Might have had better results.

[arpthark]

Aren't flugelhorns really just 6/4-sized cornets?

[DonO.]

Chuck Mangione says playing a flugelhorn Feels So Good!

Going to my corner now.

[jtm]

The flugelhorn player in my brass band started on it a few months ago, moving from cornet. Her tuning, tone, and control are great, but her background is (French) horn, so that might help.

[bloke]

proper response:
I have not experienced any makes - in particular - playing "flat".
That having been said, the first time (typically) a trumpet player plays a "piccolo" trumpet, they tend to play it (even as low as) a quarter-tone or lower "flat", due to the air speed/intensity required to play those instruments properly.

typical bloke tmi rhetoric:
to ME...

A (good) flugelhorn feels more "right" than a good trumpet.

In the past I "messed around with" trumpet quite a bit in the shop (when my back/arm/legs were tired from work, but I had enough energy - while resting - to play an instrument)...and (well...I started on trumpet in school as well) developed a pretty good sound (nearly marketable) and range (maybe to F about "high" C - ie. "concert" E-flat). The thing that I did NOT have (with trumpet) was enough ENDURANCE to play a gig (or even a "set").

Range-wise - regarding the flugelhorn, ONLY playing up to a "D" (above "high" C) was about the same as playing a couple of steps higher on the trumpet...The smaller bore - on the front end of the flugelhorn - helped me play almost as high.

As far as the low range is concerned (unlike trumpet) the FUNDAMENTAL pitch range IS easily available on a flugelhorn. In fact, someone might (??) wish to bridge the 1st/2nd partials (as with a 5-valve or 4-valve compensating tuba) due to accessibility of that range (if not "just for fun"). I'm sure it has to do with the tuba-like taper of the instrument, the V-cup mouthpiece (though some people play them with bowl cups - often people who like to play in the high range on them (which - to me - defeats the purpose of the instrument - much like these tuba solos which spend a lot of time messing around way above the staff) and possibly the extra resistance of the small bore mouthpipe and valveset (I'm not a acoustician, but only an observer of that which is.)

Flugelhorns tend to sound better with a less-than-perfect lips vibration (again: same as tuba...it creates its own "tone".)

As far as the Feels So Good tune...yes: Years ago, I played that on a handful of gigs...and without crashing/burning (no: certainly not as well as Mr. Mangione, but "good enough")...but (today) I wouldn't wish to do that - at least, not without a month's warning.

As far as makes and cachet are concerned, Yamaha makes pretty good ones. The unicorns/golden eggs of the flugelhorns are the "vintage" ones were made by Couesnon (a French make which is what became of Gautrot - a factory which has shrunk from 1500 workers to roughly 25). These (those made decades ago, though - I'm thinking - one can still be ordered "new") were crappy-built economy French-made instruments that sounded amazingly good. In the USA (several decades ago) Gretsch Guitar and Drum Company imported them (along with cheap line of French-made woodwinds called "Lafayette") and Couesnon brass were typically only found for sale (new) in "combo" stores - not band instrument stores...which may well explain where people (such as Mr. Mangione) acquired theirs. They typically need piston refitting to make them viable, but some oddball (and sometimes amazing-but-oddball trumpet players) don't want the valves rebuilt on a Couesnon, and prefer the loosey-goosey valves (my guess is because they are "hoss" players and use the leakiness to - more easily - lip pitches in tune.)

summary:
I view them as more accessible than trumpet, easier to produce a marketable sound sooner and with less practice, and - in particular - more accessible to tuba players - as (basically) they are soprano tubas (bore-taper-wise).

[Tubeast]

Flgh = 6/4 cornet?
I don´t think so, but am not sure about British flugelhorns.

I believe cornets, alto- tenor- and bariton horns as used in British Brass Bands share one sound concept:
SLIGHTLY more conical than a trumpet / valve trombone, and starting with a rather small bore.
There doesn´t seem to exist a bass instrument in that family.

Same goes with British Flugelhorn, Euphonium and Basses in EEb/BBb (or so I think): These probably share similar grades of conicity.

The old Bohemian rotary designs provide a consistent sound concept of their own:
Flugelhorn, Tenorhorn, Tubas in F and BBb (The latter two being represented by Melton models 46 (38 cm bell) and 25, respectively)
Then there are (Kaiser)-Baryton and (Kaiser)-Tuba, both being 6/4 versions of their aforementioned counterparts.
I don´t know of any "Kaiser"-versions of flugelhorn in that Bohemian category...

[bloke]

A quick search shows that UK-made flugelhorns were essentially the same as the French/Japanese/American/etc.-made ones (other than variations that would be expected from maker-to-maker).

Here's an Edgware-made "Sovereign".




Back when Blessing (USA, not China) was at their highest point, they offered a (very "so-so") student-priced flugelhorn (that people bought - due to pricing) but also a (fun-to-play) "pro" flugelhorn. It was "fun" because (as with other makes) it was optionally offered with 4 valves but ALSO featured a trumpet-sized valveset bore, so - in particular/comparison - it could be played quite LOUDLY. I sold one of those (due to that characteristic) to Joe Cocker's trumpet player. I believe that player also (optionally) chose the copper bell version. There's currently one of those (but only 3 valves) on eBay:

[2nd tenor]

Thanks for the responses guys .

The issues are unclear but knowing that ‘variability’ helps and some plan for sorting things out will emerge.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[iiipopes]

A short lesson in physics of brass instruments:

1) the more cylindrical, the sharper an instrument plays unless the bell flare is made properly to compensate;
2) the more conical, the flatter an instrument plays unless compensated in construction or mouthpiece otherwise.

I have a classic Couesnon flugel. Magnificent, inimitable, piquant, smoky tone. It did not have a mouthpiece when I purchased it. I tried a famous maker's mouthpieces. All of them are made to the current fad of getting the darkest tone possible. All of them made the horn play progressively flatter the higher in register I played. I sold them all.

I found in two different places on line two contemporary Couesnon flugel mouthpieces: one in a box of assorted items I identified, purchased, and sold the others, breaking even. The other was from a lady who thought it was a cornet mouthpiece, didn't recognize the name, and I got it for $25. On both of these mouthpieces, the cup is not too deep; the throat is the correct size for the small bore of the flugel; the backbore of the mouthpiece is tapered correctly, and with either of these mouthpieces the flugel plays in tune all the way to 2nd ledger line C and beyond. One is a little darker toned for solo work; the other is a little brighter for section work.

There is no reason for a flugel to play flat. It all depends on the player, the proper mouthpiece, avoidance of chasing fads of which horn or the darkest tone possible, and being reasonable overall. I don't have triggers; I set the 3rd valve slide a little long just like we do on 3-valve tubas to get 2+3 and 1+3 in tune.

A flugel does not have to be flat.

[bloke]

The original second trumpet player in the Canadian Brass had Yamaha build him an upright flugelhorn instrument - as is shown in the previous picture. Didn't he retire from the quintet and teach at one of the universities in Georgia? I be wrong about details, and often am.

[arpthark]

A flugel does not have to be flat.

But it's in B-flat!

[arpthark]

The original second trumpet player in the Canadian Brass had Yamaha build him an upright flugelhorn instrument - as is shown in the previous picture. Didn't he retire from the quintet and teach at one of the universities in Georgia? I be wrong about details, and often am.

Yep, Fred Mills. Passed away after a car accident in 2009.

https://news.uga.edu/uga-music-fred-mills-dies/

[peterbas]

.

[bloke]

no-formal-knowledge-of-science-physics observation:

Regardless of the type of brass instrument, deeper-cupped mouthpieces tend to lower the overall pitch level.
(To me, "proper" flugelhorn mouthpieces feature V-shaped cups, which are deeper than typical bowl-shaped trumpet mouthpiece cups...but this isn't a good explanation, because flugelhorn is to trumpet as 6/4 tuba is to 3/4 tuba...ie. TONS of OTHER differences...)

It makes no sense (to me) that "some flugelhorns play flat", unless (as some instruments are) they are (simply) built too long, a player is not shortening them enough (mouthpipe tuning slide), or a player's air speeds are too slow (as with the "first time to ever play a piccolo trumpet" thing I offered up in a previous post in this thread).

Why does any instrument play flat, or why does anyone play any type of instrument flat?
(lots of possible reasons...)

TUBA-RELATED:
The first versions/issues of quite a few China-made models of tubas (in my experience) tend to be too long, and subsequent versions are factory-corrected after buyer feedback.
The Miraphone 98 that I purchased proved (to me) to be roughly an inch to long (total) to reliably tune "to pitch" when cold - as well as my compensating euphonium having to have been shortened by roughly a half inch (total)...
...I'm sure I could have played the big tuba at pitch "cold" (with some "Helleberg II"-ish type of mouthpiece, but - well - not my cup of tea)...and I'm sure I could have played the euphonium at pitch (without shortening it) with a more conservative mouthpiece - such as a 5GS (or some such).
controversial: A far higher percentage of tuba players - these days (compared to decades ago) - play the tuba with a beautiful sound...but there are still some who produce a "pinched" type of sound, and those who play that way are - very likely - also going to be playing at a higher pitch level.

[GC]

Unless their tuning slides are too long (I had a new tuba with that problem), it's because the players either hear their pitches too low or don't adjust their instruments properly. A horn will be out of tune with itself, but a good musician will adjust.

Another issue that I've seen is that a fair number of Flugelhorn players insist on using trumpet mouthpieces with larger, longer shanks that stick out way too far, rather than using a proper flugelhorn mouthpiece.

[bloke]

@peterbas

I'm sure that chart is (often/usually/mostly - if not completely) correct.
When (long ago) playing that popular fluga-tune on jobs, I DO ABSOLUTELY (now) remember PUSHING UP those higher pitches for intonation, but (I suppose) I wasn't noticing it all that much, because it was easier to do with a flugelhorn than with the (as I've confessed to) out-of-tune tubas that I owned during that same era.

I had a new-condition (better valves than most all of them) silver-plated Couesnon that a dear (missed) friend sold me for $200.
The small bore (as one might expect) helped me push the high range up to tune, vs. the (previously mentioned/pictured) large/trumpet-bore Blessing flugelhorn - as well as those (also: trumpet-size bore) Getzen flugelhorns of old. (wandering off on another bloke stream-of-consciousness thing...) Yamaha ALSO made a "student" flugelhorn with a trumpet bore and - in fact - used their beginner model trumpet (Japan-made model 232) horizontal-slides valveset. Ryan Anthony had-and-used one of those (given to him by his father when he was around twelve years old). When he was working with the Canadian Brass, he had me clean up the exterior a bit and over-coat it with gold-tinted lacquer - so that -on stage - it would match the appearance of all of the CB gold-plated instruments.

explanation of why the hell I would play Feels So Good on flugelhorn at club gigs - back in the early 80's:
I typically played bass at combo/club gigs, but I would bring a flugel and valve 'bone, because the keyboard player could always handle the "bass", if needed.)