Embouchure trouble

[Levi Boggs]

Hello,
I’m a sophomore tuba player and just recently was told that I have very bad tuba embouchure and that it needs to be fixed. When I play roughly 60-70 percent of the mouthpiece is below my mouth and I was told that 60 percent or more of the mouthpiece needs to be above my mouth. The problem is that my sound is now much poorer (except in the low register) and I can’t play nearly as high as I used to. Will this get better with time or should I be doing something differently?

[bloke]

Hello,
I’m a sophomore tuba player and just recently was told that I have very bad tuba embouchure and that it needs to be fixed. When I play roughly 60-70 percent of the mouthpiece is below my mouth and I was told that 60 percent or more of the mouthpiece needs to be above my mouth. The problem is that my sound is now much poorer (except in the low register) and I can’t play nearly as high as I used to. Will this get better with time or should I be doing something differently?

There are some teachers/private studio coaches/whatever you wish to call them - who pay more attention to success than to rules.
Sometimes there is only one way to success. Other times, there are additional ways. Some people are very successful who do obviously extraneous/non-productive things (odd habits regarding breathing, slide manipulation or all sorts of things).

Rules are "things that work for most people". Sometimes, they don't work for everyone. As an example, I know someone (a remarkable player familiar to the overwhelming majority of people who visit this site) who could never manage to multiple tongue, so they developed a controlled-speed flutter-tonguing that has a marketable sound.

Other times, rules are (really) the only way to achieve a high level of success. ...I suppose an example of this would be someone who - rather than vibrating their lips - vibrates one lip and their tongue. People can learn to make sounds and play pitches like that but - almost for certain - they will eventually run into a brick wall.

again:
Seek out an open-minded teacher, so - if they tell you that what you're doing is just not going to (eventually) work BETTER than what you've been doing, you will feel confident in executing a change.

btw...
If you have a very short space between your mouth opening and the bottom of your nose, YET a tall space in the indention above your chin...That may be the only way to make something as large as a tuba mouthpiece "fit"...(yes? no?)

Finally,
DO NOT ASSUME that I'm offering you advice, OTHER THAN finding/having someone - who is analytical, a fine player, and open-minded - work with you.

[russiantuba]

Take a look at the Farkas book where he examines the embouchures of many brass players. Look at Arnold Jacobs. Many of the top pros had embouchures that were wrong by the text books. I don't focus on embouchures. Jacobs's embouchure was called the river. It shouldn't have worked, but it did.

I have tried an embouchure change once in my teaching--and I had the student revert back, and this was earlier in my teaching. The student ended up doing a good job. A total embouchure change would be a last resort.

I personally know a local trumpet player who did an embouchure change and bragged about it well before Covid, just a couple of adjustments. He played for one of his professors who mentioned something along the lines that "you sounded way better when you were in school tone wise". He also is having numerous issues, the small things present that he could work past, that have magnified.

Lastly, on trumpet, where it makes a bigger difference, I have seen a couple of european trumpet players play well off to a side, and sound amazing. One trumpeter I did a couple of years of my undergrad with had a very off center embouchure that was fixed later in her collegiate career. She had an awesome low range, an OK high range. Her professor changed her embouchure. I know she was a music education major, and a band director now, but I remember she mentioned her difficulty playing and it frustrated, where she didn't practice the summer after the change out of frustration, and did enough to pass her recital. I don't think she plays anymore.

So many band directors and other types think that the embouchure is the answer and the only answer. I might be old school and more rooted in Jacobs pedagogy, but I suspect there are other things that could be fixed. I can help you find a good teacher that will work with you based on your location (can't guarantee embouchure changes won't happen), but someone who is confident in their teaching and success that I trust will guide you the right way.

[LeMark]

36 years of teaching and I think I could count on one hand the number of times I've really pushed for a student to make an embouchure change

The answer usually lies elsewhere

[arpthark]

Take a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott. Worked wonders for me. Using some of his techniques, I am playing better (well, more relaxed and easy) now in my mid 30s than I did when I was in music school and doing auditions.

[kingrob76]

I recently took a lesson with a very, very well known teacher with an impressive background and I told him I was struggling with upper range (always have). He suggested, after watching for a bit, trying to be 50/50 top/bottom and use as little tension as possible. The embouchure I default to is about 70/30 top/bottom and was more like a trombone embouchure. It’s something I work on and has started to make playing across a wider range much easier.

But there really is no “one size fits all” approach I think, and a good teacher will evaluate you for what you need vs what you should do because they believe it as gospel.

[JESimmons]

I second the recommendation for a lesson with Doug.

[bloke]

I just paid attention to "how the mouthpiece sits on my face" (' actually took a couple of - UGLY !!! - pictures.)

There's not much space between my mouth opening and the bottom of my nose, so (even with a narrow rim) the mouthpiece is sorta "snug" against the bottom of my nose (with a really large "cup" diameter, and not quite as snug with a 1mm smaller "cup" diameter). What controls "where the mouthpiece sits is NOT any percentages, but WHERE IT FITS INTO THE INDENTION ABOVE MY CHIN...That's it, and nothing else.

60/40...??
maybe...
so...??

Is this stuff you're getting from a band director, from someone who comes in after school and teaches privately, some other students, the internet, or some other place?

[gocsick]

What controls "where the mouthpiece sits is NOT any percentages, but WHERE IT FITS INTO THE INDENTION ABOVE MY CHIN...That's it, and nothing else.

Mine sits in the only spot possible in between my mustache on top and the soul patch part of the bard on the bottom. If it try to shift it up or down I can't get a good seal. I've never actually thought about it before until I read this thread.

[Mary Ann]

Third vote for lesson with Doug Elliot. He will find out what embouchure set works for you, and tell you what it is. This won't be a "music lesson." It will be an hour of testing in various ways to see what works for you. There is NO "one correct embouchure," as you just found out.

[bloke]

Third vote for lesson with Doug Elliot. He will find out what embouchure set works for you, and tell you what it is. This won't be a "music lesson." It will be an hour of testing in various ways to see what works for you. There is NO "one correct embouchure," as you just found out.

Doug's a great guy...he knows a lot...he's stayed in my home.
LOL...my personal "embouchure" (again...I'm not posting the really ugly pictures) can only be one way...I can fit the mouthpiece "there", and that's it...and (again) a 1mm smaller o.d. mouthpiece fits in their slightly more easily, but it's still the same...no room for any choices...

These are LARGE mouthpieces, and - if we don't park them and center them in the indention above our chin, there's going to be an air leak...yes?
and - once the mouthpiece is parked there - the rest of where it ends up is already decided...

- You park the bottom of the rim in the indention (again to avoid a leak), and the rest of it (regardless of mouthpiece diameter or rim contour) is going to go where it will go.

OK...I typed it twice...That's enough.

trombone/trumpet/horn: all sorts of options.

[Mary Ann]

I have a limitation on how far UP I can move the cup, because of my nose being in the way (ow.) However, I have quite a bit of latitude, 3/8 inch probably, for moving it DOWN, despite the rather obvious dent in my chin. I can still make contact.

[MiBrassFS]

Hello,
I’m a sophomore tuba player and just recently was told that I have very bad tuba embouchure and that it needs to be fixed. When I play roughly 60-70 percent of the mouthpiece is below my mouth and I was told that 60 percent or more of the mouthpiece needs to be above my mouth. The problem is that my sound is now much poorer (except in the low register) and I can’t play nearly as high as I used to. Will this get better with time or should I be doing something differently?

If this person said you sounded bad or could sound better, fine, look at changing something to improve if you or people you trust agree. If they said you looked bad, tell them to bugger off. Strict percentages are nonsense as everyone’s face is different.

I will also say pick a setting and stick to it, what ever it may be. A great way to screw yourself up is running more than one set up. Good luck.

[bloke]

If this person said you sounded bad or could sound better, fine, look at changing something to improve if you or people you trust agree. If they said you looked bad, tell them to bugger off. Strict percentages are nonsense as everyone’s face is different.

I will also say pick a setting and stick to it, what ever it may be. A great way to screw yourself up is running more than one set up. Good luck.

The worst playing I've ever done was (c. age 18) when others (not the person with whom I was studying) were talking all about "embouchure", and got me looking in the mirror, etc... (and it wasn't because I was only 18, either).

If becoming absorbed with this topic is a pursuit, I'm not sure that horn/trumpet/trombone people are the best advisors, as the have lots of room to place their much smaller mouthpieces in different ways, and - further - they never have to subtly slide their mouthpieces around, due to (TUBA) having to close the lips down small enough to play in the trumpet range (a few pitches above the staff) and - alternately - open their lips more than a fourth inch apart (to play loud pitches at the bottom of the piano keyboard range)...

...Since trumpet players' lip opening amounts are so subtly different - from high to low - they aren't aware of any movement at all (whether-or-not there is any).

[arpthark]

If this person said you sounded bad or could sound better, fine, look at changing something to improve if you or people you trust agree. If they said you looked bad, tell them to bugger off. Strict percentages are nonsense as everyone’s face is different.

I will also say pick a setting and stick to it, what ever it may be. A great way to screw yourself up is running more than one set up. Good luck.

The worst playing I've ever done was (c. age 18) when others (not the person with whom I was studying) were talking all about "embouchure", and got me looking in the mirror, etc... (and it wasn't because I was only 18, either).

Overanalyzing my face, trying to self-diagnose, etc. gave me severe paralysis-by-analysis, something like dystonia at the end of my undergrad. There was a period for a few months where even bringing a metal mouthpiece rim up to my lips caused my face to shake. Didn't happen with delrin. In retrospect, I should have just taken it easy, not played for a month or two, and come back to the horn, but I was beating a dead horse instead by practicing 6+ hours a day and trying to muscle through it or fix it via daily routine. The problem itself became moot eventually because I changed career paths soon after graduating, and after a couple years of freelance work (where I could hold it together through gigs), didn't play in any serious capacity for a long time.

Whatever that was happened about 15 years ago, and only when I started playing seriously again recently did the same things start to pop up (because, like a big dummy, I started thinking about them again for the first time in 15 years). I had the benefit of less stress and playing for recreation this time around. Taking a lesson with an embouchure person allowed me to demystify/quantify what I was doing and allowed me to think of my embouchure in concrete terms instead of this amorphous thing I was trying to diagnose by feel or backwards in a mirror.

Once I got that sorted out, it became second nature, and the past year I haven't had any problems.


--> "ask your teacher"

[Vegasbound]

I would contact Doug Elliott asap and have a Skype lesson you will then have the answer on your chop type etc


www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com

[bloke]

In retrospect, I should have just taken it easy, not played for a month or two, and come back to the horn, but I was beating a dead horse instead by practicing 6+ hours a day and trying to muscle through it or fix it via daily routine.

In the past (old site) there was a tuba salesman (viewed by some as a "guru") who would advise people to do as you did (above...and with a very specific list of "stuff to do") rather than (as you agree that you should have) just laying off for a while.

I would bite down on an old leather belt ("figuratively") when seeing that sort of advice...

"Toughing through" music is hard, and the results of doing so are - always - "hard" sounds.

[Mary Ann]

Learning what IS right for you is the path out of "trying everything under the sun not knowing which I should pursue, so pursuing all of them at once."
That was why I got dystonia on horn -- NO ONE would tell me how to do it, and I'm smart enough and creative enough that I found a number of different ways to do it, but kept wonking back and forth among them trying to figure out which one was "right." I found one that seemed easy, but no teacher had ever said that was the way to do it, so I figured it must not be right, and kept on experimenting. Teaching is abysmal; for someone with the ability to figure out six different ways of doing something, you do NOT tell them to "play the sound you hear in your head," because they will go through all six of those methods they found, trying to see which one gets the sound they want. Rather than the straightforward instruction you will get from Doug, or from Roger Lewis AFTER you talk to Doug.

[bloke]

I've heard a fiddle players consulting Arnold Jacobs trying to overcome various types of issues having to do with playing, but I would sort of wonder how many trumpet trombone horn or clarinet players had embouchure questions for him.

Our experiences are different, as my worst problems were when I started thinking about embouchure, and yours seem to have been when you didn't have someone to show you how to make one.

We're either talking in circles or talking past each other and it's not productive.

I'm not a small person, but I don't know how many times I can say that even a narrow rimmed ~TUBA~ mouthpiece doesn't fit on my face but one way. Put it there. Make a fart sound. Spend time doing it to make it sound nice and to be able to connect sounds together.

Rather than where they stick their mouthpiece on their face - again: which involves very limited choices, the overwhelming majority of tuba players who don't make pretty sounds underestimate how far apart they need to spread their teeth in order to make a nice sound even as high as near the top of the staff down to way below the staff.

I could imagine a clueless classroom teacher, trumpet-playing student colleague, or even some other person - who is supposed to know more - blaming a bad sound on where the mouthpiece is sitting on some young tuba player's face, rather than the fact that (which is so typical) the inside of their mouth is all closed down.