Tuba Intonation - Rant

[martyneilan]

As seen below, most of the typically-written tuba range is between 2c and 2c tuned flat on typical pianos:

Ah yes, stretch tuning. Part of what makes a piano sound so good. I had the misfortune of playing a couple years with a bari sax player who consistently played 20 cents sharp. The exact opposite of where you want to be down there. And why trumpet players can get away with playing a little sharp, especially in their upper register.

[dp]

Point of order... Do i have to rant to post in this thread?

set your mind to it and without underthinking you'll get dystonia without thinking about it...how much fun is that?

[TxTx]

I think it would be better to extend the mouth pipe and put a tune any note slide where the first slide is typically located. Additionally, it would be luxurious to have it self-centering with a spring system such as Reynolds used to install on the first slides of their tubas.

Control system enginerd that I am, Bloke’s comment makes me want to put a small servoactuator on the main tuning slide, and automatically move the actuator to drive whatever note is coming out of the horn into tune. Of course the player would have to cooperate and also try play in tune. If they didn’t, and say lipped the note the other way (e.g. sharp), the gadget would drive the slide yet further trying to correct. The fairly low frequencies involved also might make it a little slow to react. Wonder if anyone’s experimented with such a thing….

Eric

[bloke]

I think it would be better to extend the mouth pipe and put a tune any note slide where the first slide is typically located. Additionally, it would be luxurious to have it self-centering with a spring system such as Reynolds used to install on the first slides of their tubas.

Control system enginerd that I am, Bloke’s comment makes me want to put a small servoactuator on the main tuning slide, and automatically move the actuator to drive whatever note is coming out of the horn into tune. Of course the player would have to cooperate and also try play in tune. If they didn’t, and say lipped the note the other way (e.g. sharp), the gadget would drive the slide yet further trying to correct. The fairly low frequencies involved also might make it a little slow to react. Wonder if anyone’s experimented with such a thing….

Eric

If you could make that work, unless it was extremely sophisticated (and more sophisticated than you might imagine) it would probably only play in tune with electronic keyboards that are all tuned the same way - all with the same interpretation of keyboard stretch tuning programmed into them. Otherwise, every pitch we play is tuned differently for different chords.

Also, it would be difficult to imagine anyway to operate such a thing without some sort of electromagnet, electromagnets are going to vibrate when activated, and that vibration would transfer to the instrument's body.

If you're going to go that far, we already have pretty good midi tuba sounds that are tuned to keyboard stretch tuning. Those eliminate your problem of player fallibility to which you referred.

[MiBrassFS]

I’ve been told, but don’t know, but I have been told, a GOOD repair technician can fix all those out of tune notes so you can just smash buttons. But, I don’t know…

[bloke]

I’ve been told, but don’t know, but I have been told, a GOOD repair technician can fix all those out of tune notes so you can just smash buttons. But, I don’t know…

A heavy wall mouthpiece and Pilczuk mouth pipe solves all of those issues...
Well...along with a main tuning slide trigger.

[MiBrassFS]

I’ve been told, but don’t know, but I have been told, a GOOD repair technician can fix all those out of tune notes so you can just smash buttons. But, I don’t know…

A heavy wall mouthpiece and Pilczuk mouth pipe solves all of those issues...
Well...along with a main tuning slide trigger.

There was some sort of local-to-me connection to that leadpipe company maybe 30+ years ago. A couple of trumpet players started showing up with some crazy frankentrumpets that included leadpipes with steps in them. These two proceeded to talk their friends into letting them perform surgery on the friends’ trumpets. Part “magic feather” part “Emperor’s new clothes.” It was entertaining watching these shiny new trumpets be improved.

[bloke]

It's interesting what sorts of (seemingly devastating) things can be done to instruments that don't seem to mess them up very much at all. Well hell, we've all played tubas that are all dented up and creased that still play great, yes... and there are some people that can stick a 24AW into a tuba and sound like an angel.

It's also interesting to watch players herd themselves - equipment-wise - behind players who tend to be hired really often (and/or full-time) and have managed to make a career out of playing, rather than expending the energy required to analyze what works best for themselves as individuals.

People defend their choices (whether or not they're actually successful players themselves) by pointing out that's so-and-so notable player uses this or that piece of equipment or also does this or that thing.
Heck, on my mouthpieces page on Facebook, I do the same thing: I've got pictures of people like Norm Pearson, Jeff Anderson, and others - with their tubas and wearing their concert dress - displaying my mouthpieces and smiling.

[MiBrassFS]

More than ever, people are driven to advance their own personal agenda. Social media has reinforced people’s sense of self. Defending choices of all kinds has become a full time job for some. I understand they call themselves “influencers.” These people are successful because there’s plenty of folks looking to follow someone else.

[bloke]

More than ever, people are driven to advance their own personal agenda. Social media has reinforced people’s sense of self. Defending choices of all kinds has become a full time job for some. I understand they call themselves “influencers.” These people are successful because there’s plenty of folks looking to follow someone else.

I don't mind people pushing their own agendas, but I suspect that a lot of people are misguiding themselves by allowing others' personal agendas to become their own, as well as others' choices and others' sociopolitical agendae - whether those sociopolitical agendae are actually noble or cunningly sinister.

Today, if a person doesn't bend over backwards and patronize this or that group of people (totally looking past individual sovereignty) based on their melanin content or their sexual proclivities, a sadly astonishing number of other people have been convinced (by academia, media, and social pressure) to label such people (people who properly shrug off the importance of those sorts of things) as so-called "haters". The people who fall for this tack are allowing themselves to be herded - as if they are livestock, while they themselves are (in their brainwashed minds) herding other people - as if those superfluously grouped individuals are livestock as well.

[MiBrassFS]

More than ever, people are driven to advance their own personal agenda. Social media has reinforced people’s sense of self. Defending choices of all kinds has become a full time job for some. I understand they call themselves “influencers.” These people are successful because there’s plenty of folks looking to follow someone else.

I don't mind people pushing their own agendas, but I suspect that a lot of people are misguiding themselves by allowing others' personal agendas to become their own, as well as others' choices and others' sociopolitical agendae - whether those sociopolitical agendae are actually noble or cunningly sinister.

Today, if a person doesn't bend over backwards and patronize this or that group of people (totally looking past individual sovereignty) based on their melanin content or their sexual proclivities, a sadly astonishing number of other people have been convinced (by academia, media, and social pressure) to label such people (people who properly shrug off the importance of those sorts of things) as so-called "haters". The people who fall for this tack are allowing themselves to be herded - as if they are livestock, while they themselves are (in their brainwashed minds) herding other people - as if those superfluously grouped individuals are livestock as well.

At the risk of getting this thread locked, etc., but since your chosen path is a real one…

Well, sure. How many do you think profess publicly, but do not practice nor believe behind closed doors privately?

[donn]

More than ever, people are driven to advance their own personal agenda. Social media has reinforced people’s sense of self. Defending choices of all kinds has become a full time job for some. I understand they call themselves “influencers.” These people are successful because there’s plenty of folks looking to follow someone else.

Do tuba player luminaries like M. Elefant get endorsement contracts for mouthpieces etc.? That seems similar to the model for "influencer." I haven't gotten to work yet on becoming one, but I suspect they build up a certain following of admirers, and then start pulling in some advertising money.

The difference between advertising your choices, vs. defending them, might be a semantic nicety, but ... to return to musical instruments [ I wasn't sure what "profess publicly" was about, but not a musical reference, right? ] ...

Part of the problem is that it is not a science, it's an art, but people have an ingrained bias against esthetic values. Really. It's OK if it's an area that's recognized to be limited to esthetic, for example wine. But when it's about something that has "practical" values ... imagine coming back from the hardware store with a power drill that you chose because you liked the color. You might very well do it, but you certainly shouldn't let on, because after that, no one will respect you as a person.

Well, if you're a musician, you're an artist, like it or not, and it's hard. You have a relationship with your instrument that's part of that, and at any reasonably high level, you have good days and bad days and it's virtually impossible to be scientific about what works for you. But of course, you must, and the science talking snake oil salesmen are there to take advantage of it. Did you rotate your mouthpiece? Valve caps heavy enough?

[MiBrassFS]

You quoted me, but it looks more like you’re addressing bloke’s point. Mine was a more general population idea.

Don’t be afraid of bloke. He won’t bite. At least not very hard…

[donn]

You quoted me, but it looks more like you’re addressing bloke’s point. Mine was a more general population idea.

If you're interested in defending your choices, I got to you at the beginning of the 2nd paragraph. I don't see influencers as the defensive people. But your comments also figure in what you see as "bloke's point", with the story about stepped leadpipes. (Wait - is that kind of like the "gap"!?)

[MiBrassFS]

If you're interested in defending your choices, I got to you at the beginning of the 2nd paragraph.

No musical references. Just general observations of current humanity from my view point.

People may notice that I have no interest in defending my choices. They’re my choices to make (I earned them) and I couldn’t care less what others think of them (no offense intended…). I don’t present them here or elsewhere for judgement. There are people here who like to try to troll/bait/“what have you” others into defending themselves and their choices. Seems like they’re just bored. Or lonely. Or both. And, you know, they’re ok with me unless they’re dumb about it.

Those leadpipes seemed to exaggerate the idea of nodes hitting at certain spots in the tubing. The thing I found interesting is that they also seemed to ignore the overtone series and octaves, but I didn’t study them all that closely and am no expert.

[bloke]

stepped mouthpipes..."the dent"...Pocket Rocket...removing braces...adding braces...releasing tension...rings to slip over mouthpiece shanks...can-shaped mouthpieces with almost no material removed from the 2" stock...all rotors rotating in the same direction...gimmick spit valves...removing spit valves...

...these - and so many other things (instrument related, as well as a a seemingly infinite list of non-instrument-related things) - falling within the realm of "The Science".

[MiBrassFS]

One of my favorites…?

Old leather bell belts! Don’t forget those!

Though, I do also enjoy that secret brace alchemy some have discovered…

[Mary Ann]

"the dent" needs its own number. 13 is taken.

[bloke]

We shouldn't be omitting climate change. That's the cause of/reason for everything, these days.

[gocsick]

stepped mouthpipes..."the dent"...Pocket Rocket...removing braces...adding braces...releasing tension...rings to slip over mouthpiece shanks...can-shaped mouthpieces with almost no material removed from the 2" stock...all rotors rotating in the same direction...gimmick spit valves...removing spit valves...

...these - and so many other things (instrument related, as well as a a seemingly infinite list of non-instrument-related things) - falling within the realm of "The Science".

The guy I bought my trumpet from, LA Olds Ambassador, Insisted it needs a copper penny under the 3rd valve bottom cap to slot properly. That was the magic incantation that made him play better. The placebo effect is as real in every hobby/profession as it is in medicine.