RVW Original Manuscript Fun

[russiantuba]

A colleague is downsizing and sent me some tuba related stuff, and in it is a copy of the original manuscript of the RVW Concerto for Bass Tuba. Apparently there are sites where one can buy this now; but I never realized that.

I’ve been comparing a lot of stuff, mainly articulations, where it isn’t even close to being the same. There are a lot more slurs that change the mood and character of the piece, particularly in the first movement. The cadenza is shown here compared.



I’m at the point of asking myself, what do I do on an audition, and if I ever perform it again, doing as the composer wrote would makes this piece very unique.

Has anyone on here ever played it as the composer wrote it?

[bloke]

supply copies to the audition committee via the union steward, personnel manager, or whomever.

OUP sucks, imo.

[russiantuba]

supply copies to the audition committee via the union steward, personnel manager, or whomever.

OUP sucks, imo.

This was done with a Snedecor for the MET Opera audition I was told (where the John Williams was the other solo). Personally, for auditions, it seems like the RVW has become an excerpt, and really didn’t want to study it in graduate school. Wish I had known about this because it changes the entire piece.

I may do that next time to throw things for a whack. I did this with a full time audition I ended up not taking (a place where you have played out east Bloke), where they asked for the Sarabande to the Bach Cello Suite no. 5. Several friends told me not to ask because it’s always in the lower octave. After asking them, got an email back and an updated audition list where it was requested in the cello octave.

Out of all honesty, I think the solo should show musicality and personal decisions, and the RVW, between editions and the score, has several wrong rhythms, notes, and articulations, where a committee would be very likely to dismiss a candidate because of the several errata that they wouldn’t know about unless they were a tubist (95% chance one will not be on the panel). I think the John Williams or Broughton would be better pieces for an orchestral audition…

[LeMark]

Interesting. It's nice seeing the "Fletcher Cadenza" as I call it written out. I hate the optional Ab's in the published version.

[Mary Ann]

Didn't RVW approve the changes that are now in the published edition?

[bloke]

I tried to get a Canadian publisher to publish basically what you are showing a picture of, except with some inconsistencies made into consistencies.
I also had a much nicer sounding piano reduction to go with it. What's funny is that the publisher showed it to an English snooty poot expert who shouted it down. Do you think I was surprised?

[gocsick]

That’s actually a question I have as well. How much influence does the engraver, editor, publisher etc have on the finished product?

[bloke]

It's my understanding that OUP features a bunch hundreds (thousands?) of articulation changes and some different actual pitches, based on the original performer's abilities and workarounds. When the string players echo those sweeping modal arpeggios in the first movement, they do it in one bow. I suspect that Mr PC could not play them that way and broke them up into tongue and slur groupings similar to how wind band figures such as that are broken up as workarounds. As I recall, a couple of pitches were also changed in those arpeggios. That's just one tiny difference discussed, and not even in detail.
Were this an important piece of music, maybe it would all matter. It doesn't matter.

[russiantuba]

That’s actually a question I have as well. How much influence does the engraver, editor, publisher etc have on the finished product?

A bit. I know my publisher has changed stuff (my Prokofiev Ballade arrangement he said “I won’t publish it at the original length so cut the middle out”. Other articulations are added, and he even said, whatever sells it better. Sometimes, the differences in articulation are there to stick out or sound different on purpose by the composer.

When I led a consortium, I noticed a ton of changes between what the composer sent and what was later published. The composer did edit a bit.

Orchestral editions—a special edition I had never seen of the Bruckner 7 was asked on an audition. I dug around and noticed some notes were slurred instead of tongued. This isn’t the case of the Stravinsky issues, or Mahler editions having multiple measures cut out of the tuba parts (like the 6th symphony).

Basically—whatever sells, what they think the composer wanted (back then, the composers wouldn’t always respond or even cared to phone them for small things).

Another unique thing is the composer approved an edition for euphonium in different keys. The publisher refused it! Recently, David Childs got them to publish it in those keys, and recorded it on his Symphonic Euphonium II. I am now curious on the articulations in the euphonium edition.

[Mary Ann]

RVW was not a brass player, I assume.
Re what was written and what was published, if a non-brass player notates music as they would for string players, they are astonished (the first time) that now everything that was written as non-slurred notes that string players would use connected legato bowing on, suddenly is all played staccato and / or separated when there is no such articulation marked. So that can effect a huge difference between the original score and the finished product. Other things like huge leaps that are easy for string (or woodwind) players, might have to be modified for brass.

[DonO.]

This subject has come up before here, and I have written about it before here. So here we go again!

One of the biggest difficulties in composing music comes when one must compose for an instrument that one is not familiar with. Most music majors take a course called something like “Orchestration”, where one learns the extreme and usable ranges of all the instruments in the orchestra. Also, for each instrument there are technical issues to avoid if at all possible. It is really difficult to keep all of this in your head while writing, and it is tempting to ignore all that when you have a certain sound in your head and you want the instrument you’re writing for to reproduce it, technical limitations of instrument and player be damned.

I knew Philip Catilinet personally, albeit for too short a time. I played in a British style brass band at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh that he sponsored while I was in high school, and for a brief period I took lessons from him. One of the subjects we discussed was the VW, because I aspired to play it but I didn’t have the skill set yet. But the version he used in the lessons WAS the OUP. By the way, he was a GREAT pianist! He played the accompaniment without breaking a sweat. But he told me that the final product for his premier performance of it WAS the result of a collaborative meeting between him and VW. He later wrote about this meeting in the old TUBA Journal. You can still find the article online if you search for it. It’s called “The Truth About the Vaughan Williams Concerto” or something like that. It seems like VW deferred to Mr. Catilinet when it came to suggestions of changes in the interest of making the piece more playable. He did not resist these changes the way some composers might have. I believe he recognized that a successful performance was the goal. By Mr. Catelinet’s account, VW agreed to changes in slurring and phrasing, but NOT notes. Except that he agreed to leave out 2 short sections of the cadenza that were too high for Mr. Catelinet. However, these sections were added back in in later editions.

I have never encountered a recording of Mr. Catelinet playing the VW. I don’t know that one is commercially available. However, if there is a recording of the premier concert, THAT would be the version that VW agreed to, and in my opinion should be the definitive version. Not the “original manuscript”, which, absent the changes made in collaboration with Mr. Catilinet, is NOT the final revision. This is my opinion of course. And you know what they say about those!

[arpthark]

I have never encountered a recording of Mr. Catelinet playing the VW. I don’t know that one is commercially available. However, if there is a recording of the premier concert, THAT would be the version that VW agreed to, and in my opinion should be the definitive version. Not the “original manuscript”, which, absent the changes made in collaboration with Mr. Catilinet, is NOT the final revision. This is my opinion of course. And you know what they say about those!

[russiantuba]

Thank you for sending that recording. I’ve only heard it when Don Harry had played it.

Catlinet was a euphoniumist before the war and was guaranteed a job when he got back, which was this. I remember talking to Dr. Paul Droste, an expert on RVW and notating low brass transcriptions in terms of articulations, who mentioned he met him and he was a great euphonium player prior.

With that being said and confirming from the recording, he was still grasping the tuba at this point on how to play and command it.

My debate goes back to this—though RVW might have agreed on the OUP articulation edition, is this what he really wanted? His earlier works were scored for wind band, and they aren’t easy. He also wrote for brass band. When composers don’t know how to write effectively due to it being non standard, they ask players. I see it all the time. However, with his expertise in wind band, I think he conceded to Catlinet and his playing at the time. Had he written it today, I don’t think he would have changed anything.


I did a candidacy exam question on RVW where I researched he had studied Spanish/french composers and Wagner, so I made a justification that his orchestral parts were not written idiomatically to the tuba because of the great range he saw in his score studying. His music really pushed the tuba to its boundaries and then some for the time, especially in range.

When preparing editions of a work, there is a huge issue on what the composer intended, what worked, and what was published. A big example is the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. Berlioz, a master of instrumentation, scored the finale up to a Bb above middle C in the ophicleide, while the tuba edition published in his lifetime took that down. It is still unknown if it was the publisher, but with his Treatise and how much he promoted the tuba’s superiority, I would lean to the side he had something to do with this change. So, as a performer, I go for the Bb—that is what he originally wanted musically. The instruments of the time and the performers had limitations.

To end this thought, I think it was John Mackey who applauded Frank Ticheli for his ability to write effective, easy music. As musicians, we want to have the ability to be able to perform whatever a composer wants.

[DonO.]

Dr. Green- a fine and scholarly post sir! You make a fine argument.

I had never heard the recording arpthark posted before. After having listened to it, I totally buy into your assertion that Catelinet was still adjusting to tuba playing. I actually couldn’t believe it was him judging by the tone. When I knew him, his tone quality was much, much better than the recording would indicate!

Having heard the recording, it’s difficult for me to believe that he was the best available tuba player at the time for the job. But apparently he was. And, in spite of less than stellar tone, he did a workmanlike job.

[bloke]

also...That's surely not the original manuscript, but copyist-written from RVW's manuscript.
That's the tuba part included with the (copyist/manuscript) rental score, just fwiw.

[iuhzrtuba]

On a SFS trip to London I took a half day and visited the British Library to study the RVW manuscript. It's a very interesting folder of paper scraps and bits with scribbling, edits, sketches and the RVW concerto. It's obvious that changes and adjustments were being made until very late in the creative process. I found it quite moving to have the opportunity to spend time with piece. The score is held in a reserve room and you must secure a library card which I was able to do quickly.

Jeff Anderson
San Francisco Symphony

[Snake Charmer]

Roger Bobo told the story about RVW having complained about the changes in the printed edition, but it was never corrected to his original version. Back in the 50s RVW sent a copy of his manuscript to Roger, this is now available from upperhaymusic.com

[BramJ]

I bought that one from upperhaymusic, it looks very similar to the one in the opening post

[bloke]

LOL... so another Canadian publisher did it anyway.

[russiantuba]

I bought that one from upperhaymusic, it looks very similar to the one in the opening post

I took a look at the sample and it appears to be the same. I didn’t know this existed. A friend sent me these as he is downsizing; also sent me the Denis Wick arrangement for band.

Having led a consortium and working with composers, I’ve suggested a few things, or asked for clarity (this doesn’t match the accompaniment, this articulation doesn’t match earlier is it supposed to, etc). I often get the “oh yeah that makes sense, or here is why I did it but I see what you mean, do it either way works”.

Unlike composers today, RVW didn’t have anything to model tuba solo playing with; though pieces existed, they weren’t known. In fact, I recall an interview with Bobo saying he had heard of the premiere and a couple years later contacted a publisher about purchasing it and they said RVW had never written such a piece.

RVW was commissioned to write this, and from what I read, he wrote it before even meeting Catlinet. In fact, it was supposed to be a 20 minute work in the original commission, and it is significantly shorter. At the end of the day, he probably was willing to take all the edits and suggestions from Catlinet to have some sort of successful performance, get his money, and move on.

John Williams revised his concerto after Bobo played it. Our highest post count member played the original, and Bobo played the living daylight out of it, and mainly the final page is what was changed, which made it easier. I don’t think this was done to make it easier, but in my opinion, it made the ending more effective musically.