odd things about (some really fine) wind bands

[bloke]

Okay.
Almost none of these offer any remuneration, but some of them feature really fine players from top to bottom, as well as really talented directors.

Here are a couple of quirky things that I've noticed (attending a few such concerts and - now - recent participation of my own) that don't really happen with lower level (FOR remuneration) lower level symphony orchestras:

- tuning:
It seems as though high level wind bands seem to embrace tuning (to the principal oboe or clarinet) as a real thing (and not ceremonial, which it actually is). If they play a B flat, I can tell that some people actually believe they are tuning, because some are physically changing their instruments, and some of these bands even go so far as to play both a B-flat and an A. (Okay, I've noticed that maybe two or three out of sixteen violinists fiddle with their instruments as well, but they put them right back the way they were ...LOL)

- sound check:
Even if the dress rehearsal was held in the hall where the performance is scheduled to be, they often show up an hour early and spend time corporately (rather than individually in the wings, etc ) - on a sound check, which is basically a thirty to forty-five minute rehearsal (often overlapping patrons entering the hall, but perhaps sometimes the doors to the hall are locked until this is over). Sound checks make sense (to me) when there is some amplification involved or for the first time with singers on stage (such as the traveling Broadway shows, whereby the pit band rehearses out in the lobby from mid-morning to early afternoon going through the entire show one time, and then the sound check involves being amplified in the pit and playing through a few passages with some of the leads in the show), but - if the amplification is in place during the dress rehearsal (such as with a symphony orchestra pops concert) - then it doesn't make sense, and typically the only microphone on stage (with wind bands, at wind band concerts) is near the podium for the music director to chat with the audience between every two or three pieces or so...

... It just seems to me that actually believing that players need to check the length of their instruments when the temperature of the room is always somewhere around 73° or so - along with doing a dress rehearsal after a dress rehearsal - demonstrates some sort of (unjustified) lack of confidence, when - particularly in the cases outlined above - there (again) really shouldn't be any lack of confidence.

"wind symphony" (as part of the name for a wind band)
Only a very small percentage of compositions - including multi-movement compositions - composed for wind bands are designated a "symphonies". Symphony orchestras are called that because they play a lot of symphonies. Arguably, America's finest wind bands are its military bands, and the very finest of those call themselves "bands".

... so in this thread you can criticize and tear me apart for noticing these things.


Oh, and on the symphony orchestra side of criticizing things that go on with symphony orchestras (particularly the lower level paid ones), here's something really annoying about orchestra concerts over the last two or three decades:
It's 7:30 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. and time for the downbeat. Instead of the concertmaster coming out and doing the ceremonial tuning thing, the executive director comes out and chit chats for five or ten minutes about all sorts of blather, delaying the start of the concert. It's very anti-climactic as opposed to at least getting the tuning thing over within twenty or thirty seconds (as the tuning thing itself should actually be dispensed with, as it's archaic).
... Rather than ruining the mood of the concert, if the executive director really feels as though it's important to chit chat with the audience, they should do this AFTER INTERMISSION and NOT at the beginning of the concert.

[Cameron Gates]

- tuning:
It seems as though high level wind bands seem to embrace tuning (to the principal oboe or clarinet) as a real thing (and not ceremonial, which it actually is). If they play a B flat, I can tell that some people actually believe they are tuning, because some are physically changing their instruments, and some of these bands even go so far as to play both a B-flat and an A. (Okay, I've noticed that maybe two or three out of sixteen violinists fiddle with their instruments as well, but they put them right back the way they were ...LOL)

This X1000

I played tuba (the instrument everyone in the group listens “down” to for pitch information) in a military band AND worked on all of its members’ brass instruments. Never has there been a group of musicians with more frozen main tuning slides. Personally, my main tuning slide was fiddled with when the horn came out of its shipping crate in 1999 and not touched for 14 years until my retirement. I do not recall pitch ever being a concern in that group.

This all worked well until the dreaded brass and organ jobs at the National Cathedral. My solution was to lay back and let the organist’s feet do the work. I love it when a plan comes together.

[Mary Ann]

As far as tuning as a violinist, your best bet is to get the A440 before you go on stage and tune then. Because on stage, you cannot hear yourself think, much less hear accurately, when the winds are tuning. So you better have it perfectly tuned before you go out. Plus, for most violins, you cannot "just turn the peg" because they are not that easy to put in a particular place. Plus, for the A and E strings, you just don't do it with one hand, and your best bet, even as a pro, is to have fine tuners on BOTH strings unless your A is exceptionally easy to make stay put.

[bloke]

As far as tuning as a violinist, your best bet is to get the A440 before you go on stage and tune then. Because on stage, you cannot hear yourself think, much less hear accurately, when the winds are tuning. So you better have it perfectly tuned before you go out. Plus, for most violins, you cannot "just turn the peg" because they are not that easy to put in a particular place. Plus, for the A and E strings, you just don't do it with one hand, and your best bet, even as a pro, is to have fine tuners on BOTH strings unless your A is exceptionally easy to make stay put.

yes...The oboe A is a big joke (ok: a "tradition")...and - yes - two or three of the louder fiddlers (never the concertmaster nor assistant) play around with their E-string fine tuner, but make damn sure they're right back where they were before the A was sounded...Mostly, they're sneaking in one last semi-pass at the first lick off the first piece...particularly if it's sorta wild, such as a "Don Juan" type of opening lick."

no:

- E.D. downbeat-time jabber
- B.S. tuning
- sound check

yes...??

one more:

- "Explain" the piece in the program booklet (or on the back of the program, or via the QR code, or whatever).
When the MAESTRO "explains" a piece prior to its commencement, he's telegraphing to the patrons, "yeah...This is one of those suck pieces."

[Mark]

"Explain" the piece in the program booklet (or on the back of the program, or via the QR code, or whatever).
When the MAESTRO "explains" a piece prior to its commencement, he's telegraphing to the patrons, "yeah...This is one of those suck pieces."

I recently played a serial work with an orchestra where the conductor tried to explain that "Yes, the [famous] composer really did mean for it to sound that way". This is always a signal that the audience is too dumb to get it.

[York-aholic]

Never has there been a group of musicians with more frozen main tuning slides. Personally, my main tuning slide was fiddled with when the horn came out of its shipping crate in 1999 and not touched for 14 years until my retirement.

I do believe this is my favorite post ever posted to this forum.

Possibly because my slide is pretty much always in the same spot, unless there is something really weird going on.

[York-aholic]

I recently played a piece (instantly forgettable) where it is written in each part things like “theme 1”, “exposition”, “theme 1 development”, “recapitulation”.

I instantly thought of the old saying, ‘if you have to explain your joke, it isn’t funny’.

[russiantuba]

Tuning---

When doing a piece with piano, such as a piano concerto, I am still trying to figure out why the pianist or concert master plays the A, THEN the oboe plays the A to match (IF they match).

With that being said, The Ohio State Wind Symphony, which I was the principal tubist for the 3 years of my DMA coursework, tunes to a Bb for tuba, and A for Oboe. The principal oboist and I met to learn how he tunes and techniques he used--such as not starting the note in tune and then locking it in so it stays steady. I felt the group played decently well in tune and listened during tuning.

It drives me nuts in groups, such as brass bands, I literally play a note for less than a half second, and someone comes in a sixteenth after I play, horribly out of tune, and before I even had a chance to adjust.

[bloke]

If there's a brass player who's tuning slide isn't in the same place from day to day to day - having been playing in a room at the same temperature, they are confusing themselves...

...my guess is by randomly tuning to some of the sharpest or some of the flattest pitches on their instruments (as they encounter them, with their tuner constantly turned on) rather than tuning to the average.

My slides vary from summer to winter, because I'm too cheap (or perhaps too broke or perhaps my ceilings are too high to afford) to keep my house the same temperature in the summer and the winter.

Just for what it's worth, summer is way easier.
80° is more difficult than 74°, but 80° is still way easier than 60°.

================

As far as getting a sense of the pitch from the tuning note (and I'm not looking for an argument with Dr Green nor with those who believe that it's impossible to learn pitch and it's only something that one can be born with, but here goes)...

Put your instrument in your lap, put your hands on the buttons, put your mouth on the mouthpiece, don't blow any air, and don't do any sort of "testing". Just hold the instrument in playing position and think. Think about the first pitch you usually play. Finally, play it. A bunch of you will play precisely the pitch that you were thinking.

[russiantuba]

Bloke, you are dead on correct about hearing pitch. One time, I had a student have a tuner on their stand for a first lesson of the day, and they commented how I was dead on in tune. It shocked me. I highly encourage the use of drones with all playing to really solidify pitch.

[Jperry1466]

I played tuba (the instrument everyone in the group listens “down” to for pitch information) in a military band AND worked on all of its members’ brass instruments. Never has there been a group of musicians with more frozen main tuning slides. Personally, my main tuning slide was fiddled with when the horn came out of its shipping crate in 1999 and not touched for 14 years until my retirement. I do not recall pitch ever being a concern in that group.

Many years ago (50, in fact) I knew an older band director in a small school with a notoriously bad sounding band (as we like to say, "you can't tune a bad sound). He got fed up with being criticized at contests for the really poor tuning, so one day he "tuned" all the brass using his Strob-o_Conn and told all those players to leave their horns in his office without moving the slides. Yes, he really soldered all those tuning slides in place. He left the business after that year, and I got to have a conversation with the most unhappy repair man who had to fix all those slides.

Many times when I am called to play for a band gig, the director seats the bari. sax player who is inevitably quite sharp (and has no clue) beside me. When he is playing, my brain wants to play in tune with him, and when he is not, I can play in tune with the ensemble. I learned over the years to just ignore that guy and try to sit somewhere else next time.

[MiBrassFS]

Some nervous school band directors never grow out of their nervousness.

Board members like to show how important they are to captive (notice I didn’t say captivated) audiences.

[gocsick]

I always thought the tuning note was just part of the magical incantation necessary to summon the maestro and call on the muses for some divine intervention.

Honestly though... I've only played in two types of "concert" bands... community bands where half the players seemed completely unable to hear that they were woefully wonky... and a brass band where the conductor was so obsessed with tuning chords against the tuner he would go down the line and have each member play their note (at a nice clean mezzo forte regardless of the dynamics of the actual piece) and say things like "your instruments natural tendency is to be a 4 cents sharp write that into your part". We would spend the rehearsal tubing chords there were a few times we had a performance of pieces we never actually ran all the way through.... which for an amateur ensemble mostly made up of people whose formal music training stopped at high school... was always a disaster.

I like the street band... there is a good mix of players from semi-pro to beginners... but we actually listen to each other and play mostly in tune.... We take a note off the tuba but that is honestly mostly just to get a sense of balance... because we have a different lineup of people and instruments most rehearsals and gigs. Typically we will actually run a standard as a warm up . that really serves as a listening and running exercise.... especially volume over solos based on who we have and the place we are playing (and if we are mic'd or of it is live sound).

[Schlitzz]

Oh, and on the symphony orchestra side of criticizing things that go on with symphony orchestras (particularly the lower level paid ones), here's something really annoying about orchestra concerts over the last two or three decades:
It's 7:30 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. and time for the downbeat. Instead of the concertmaster coming out and doing the ceremonial tuning thing, the executive director comes out and chit chats for five or ten minutes about all sorts of blather, delaying the start of the concert. It's very anti-climactic as opposed to at least getting the tuning thing over within twenty or thirty seconds (as the tuning thing itself should actually be dispensed with, as it's archaic).
... Rather than ruining the mood of the concert, if the executive director really feels as though it's important to chit chat with the audience, they should do this AFTER INTERMISSION and NOT at the beginning of the concert.

Yeah, there's also the pre concert chat, where Paulo Manus shares his thoughts on the program. Interviewed by the publicist, and you're there because of the call time. Suddenly, I have too many scheduling conflicts to continue.

[Yorkboy]

Very interesting observations.

In my opinion wind bands should model after how the Sousa Band started concerts. Once the house doors were open, no one was allowed to play one note anywhere in the building - all warming up was done before this time. Sousa didn’t want any extraneous musical sounds in the audience’s ears before the downbeat.

Then, exactly at the appointed time, Sousa would stride out to the podium, and without any chatter, or tuning, or delays of any kind, immediately wielded his baton and the concert started.

It must have been an exhilarating experience!

(Granted, this takes a high level of skill, but players who have practiced their instruments and played them for any length of time should have a general idea of where their axe “sits” depending on various temperatures - and any player who has a set of “ears” should be able to immediately bend pitches until they have an opportunity to adjust their tuning. After all, don’t we do that anyway?)

[bloke]

Fiddling around on stage (even to the point of running excerpts from the concert itself) followed up by the E.D. running their mouth five to ten minutes AFTER the concert is supposed to start...THEN some "tuning" b.s...

all (most of you would call) "un-professional".

I would label it ANTI-ENTERTAINING.

...also, just about the worst thing about concert band competitions and honor band concerts...(particular within the last three or four decades)
no sense - whatsoever - of showmanship...all of the stuff previously mentioned.

[tofu]

Well beyond all this, but in the same league when we are talking about wind bands:

How about the self important MC/announcers who drone on and on. In every wind band I’ve been in there is an announcer who opens the concert as well introduces every piece before it’s played and also closes the concert. Sometimes it takes 10 minutes (or more) and it’s never less than 5 minutes. People want to hear music -not find out where the composer went to grammar school nor that they had 3 sisters, a dog and two chickens. And then there are the ones who think they are witty & funny (and the crowd never laughs) - they make me just want to sneak around the stage with a bat and kneecap them.

My group doesn’t suffer from the next one, but I’ve seen a lot of groups that the next one does apply to - fund raising (begging for money) from the stage (before/during/after) concerts is tacky & largely ineffective. These begging attempts often go on for 10-15 minutes and often treat the audience like small children with rants of how important music is, good communities support music and for some reason during the begathon it usually devolves into if music disappears it’s your (the audience’s) fault. People come to hear music - a nice time out - not to be blamed for the decline of Western Civilization. I saw one muni band group a couple summers ago that sold t-shirts to support the band - and hawked them from the stage before every number. They also passed a couple buckets through the crowd for donations. The crowd reacted like somebody on life support - completely unresponsive. Totally awkward.

[bloke]

That's what program notes are for.
If an ensemble wants to be really cheesy, they can do a QR code for program notes.
Tell me if I'm wrong:
Didn't Sousa band era concerts utilize sliding cards on a stand to indicate what the next number (or act) was going to be?

[Mary Ann]

On intonation in amateur bands: I have yet to see it taught. I see it complained about and lectured about, but never taught. As if it were some kind of mystery school and if you would JUST DO IT it would be fine.

[bloke]

It's really not "taught" in symphony orchestras either, at least not in my experience - from youth orchestras to full-time orchestras.
Music directors speak up when fiddles sound mousy, or when some woodwind or trombone player is not tuning their thirds in a set of exposed chords. Curiously, they tend to not speak up too much when principal trumpets play sharp. Luckily, I play in orchestras where the principal trumpets behave themselves pretty much.

It takes a really fine violin section to not sound mousy up towards the short end of the E string when going lickity split and the semitones are closer together than the widths of their fingers.

I'm not sure there's a really good way to teach intonation, other than self.
If we're playing instruments whereby every single pitch has to be individually tuned every time (wind or bowed strings, etc.) we first have to develop a sense of general pitch level (be able to hear whether we're mostly around 440 general tuning, or mostly above or below it). I believe - after that - we need to learn what all of the equal temperament intervals sound like - in order at least be able to play in tune with keyboard instruments, then we need to learn how to temper them when it's either beneficial or required, and then we need to learn how to do it with other people... but probably all of these at the same time, and - depending on the musician - over a period of months, years, or decades - it gets better.

When I'm practicing with the really large tuba, the struggles are mostly in the winter - when I'm simply unwilling to pay to heat up the room in which I'm practicing to 72° or 73°, and then when spring turns to summer - when I'm simply unwilling to pay to cool the room down to the same temperature range. When I practice in the fall and spring with the really large tuba, things fall into place nicely, tuning-wise. I guess I could spend more time practicing with the smaller tubas, but those are pretty easy to play (and steer) anyway. In regards to tuning and room temperature, the smaller ones don't behave so much as if they are radiators.

This particular huge tuba features fewer and less severe tuning anomalies compared to any of the ones I've owned in the past in the same size range - even though it's valveset bore is a great deal larger compared to those I've owned in the past, but - with every single one of them - I've had to get out the torch and monkey with the tuning slide whereby it's tuning range for 440 to 441.5 or so would be something that would be obtainable between 65° and 85° F... and I've had to deal with more than a few venues outside my house (as have every single one of us) whereby the room or area temperatures reached these extremes and beyond.
smaller tubas: It's much easier for my airstream and my body to keep those things warmed up to operating temperature.

CIRCLING BACK TO THE TOPIC IN THE THREAD LABEL,
I'm finding that playing in a wind band in a two-hour (no break) rehearsal - with measures of rests that are seldom more than a number I can count on my fingers, the phenomenon of the instrument cooling down (or even a circuit within the instrument cooling down) and having to pull the pitch up is really not an issue, compared to orchestral playing.