Mock Audition Committee Poll

[russiantuba]

I messaged ITEA in 2023 regarding the Arnold Jacobs Mock Orchestral Audition to include a panel that was more representative of an actual orchestral audition—where a tubist would likely not be present.

I have mentioned this several times over the years to ITEA. In an older journal, when I was doing a ton of journal research during graduate work about a need for a mock audition at a T.U.B.A. Conference due the limited amount of tuba auditions and the need to give a simulated audition experience. This has become their premiere competition.

It seems like every international conference, the panel is all tubists, some of which don’t even have much orchestral experience. Sometimes, tubists in regional or even full time orchestras have been on the panels, but would you rather get feedback from a trombone, horn, trumpet, flautist, string musician, or a bunch of other tuba players who know the excerpts?

Many people feature duets or chamber style performances at ITEA events, and most have been hosted in towns with at least a good regional orchestra nearby.

Note: I do trust tubists with some of the big jobs who have been on the panels for other instruments on the level and what to look for, but for an actual hire for a tubist, I would assume most haven’t had to decide a winner based on that. However, they do know the excerpts and have won a job with said excerpts.

[bloke]

I don't claim to be any sort of audition king, but I usually advanced... which means that every once in awhile I got hired for or offered some small job, and other times I at least got past the cattle call.

The tempos have to be right (ie. If most of the recordings found on YouTube are all played at around 88 beats a minute, it's probably a good idea to play the excerpt at 88 beats a minute...etc.), but if anybody thinks that something marked fortissimo needs to be played as loud as they can play or even that pianissimo needs to be played as soft as they can play, they're probably not going to do particularly well.

If someone can get the tempo right, get the time steady, get the pitches in between the ditches, not scare the people behind the bed sheet with crazy loud playing, and maybe phrase a little bit, they'll probably be put in the next round.

It's not rocket science, not the size or key of the tuba, and it's not even some special timbre that players are convinced that someone behind the bed sheet must be looking for...
... It's way more basic...but "basic" is pretty hard, and I believe a whole bunch of people believe they're up to "basic', when I know that I have to work really hard personally to be up to 'basic".
Imagine playing a C major scale at exactly a certain speed and with every pitch right in tune, and that there's a machine (a machine called "audition committee") following your progress past each pitch and judging the time through each movement from one pitch to the next.

I don't know where or when, but I was told that either some string or woodwind player - after hearing fifteen or so tuba players at some audition - asked (and I can't quote them word for word, because I wasn't there) "Is this really as good as It gets? If so, should I start voting for people to advance?"

[Three Valves]

I don't know where or when, but I was told that either some string or woodwind player - after hearing fifteen or so tuba players at some audition - asked (and I can't quote them word for word, because I wasn't there) "Is this really as good as It gets? If so, should I start voting for people to advance?"

Are you suggesting that virtuosity is somewhat lacking in the tuba realm?

[bloke]

Now why would you infer that?

I believe it's safe to say that there are quite a few more fine players than there are jobs for fine players, but when a hundred people show up to audition for a job, perhaps only three to five of those are really ones that you would want to hear play with the ensemble for which they are auditioning...

... but that's still three to five times as many fine players interested in such jobs as there are jobs, yes?

[tubanh84]

I don't know where or when, but I was told that either some string or woodwind player - after hearing fifteen or so tuba players at some audition - asked (and I can't quote them word for word, because I wasn't there) "Is this really as good as It gets? If so, should I start voting for people to advance?"

Are you suggesting that virtuosity is somewhat lacking in the tuba realm?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Watching my daughter learn the violin has been eye opening. We expect more out of the lowest level violin players than we do out of collegiate tuba players. Listening to the stark difference in standards at their youth orchestra between the string and wind players is jarring. Listening specifically to the difference between the standards between strings and brass is embarrassing.

Listening the other day, the issue is sound production. Because good tonal production is a prerequisite for style, intonation, articulation, expression, and literally everything else we do. If you can't play a gorgeous whole note, how can you ever play a gorgeous run of eighth notes?

And I get there are differences - a violin player has access to every note they could ever play on day 1, while brass players have to work both up and down to learn to produce the full range of their instrument. There are physical limitations to phrasing because of the need to breath. Etc...

HOWEVER. The big difference is the mentality. The string players are EXPECTED to play the notes right, with the right bowing (articulation) and listen to each other within a section. It's all mental. We don't require that level of mental acuity from young brass players. Although we should.

[bloke]

In my experience, the horn is a far more treacherous instrument than the tuba. If YouTube unlocks the video I uploaded of my 9th grade granddaughter playing the solo from the slow movement of Tchaik 5, I'd like y'all to give it a listen.

Yes, she's very bright - one of those scary types that just doesn't encounter much difficulty - it seems - doing anything in particular extremely well (and I'm certainly not one of those), but there's a level of determination - if not stubbornness - that's required to play solo passages and solo pieces sounding as if one is a career player, before there ever is a career - if the choice is even made to have a career.

I can't remember how old she was, but I think she was about a foot shorter when she told her dad (a career horn player, but actually not her studio teacher) that someday she would have his job.

I suspect the two most important factors are extreme attention to detail (and being able to notice the details on one's own - without them necessarily being pointed out by someone else), and then the determination to completely and absolutely execute all those details...with possibly the next factor beyond those being an imagination.

[Three Valves]

The story of my life.

What I lacked in talent I made up for with lack of motivation.

[Schlitzz]

No there aren’t 100 , or more qualified applicants for a single job. There will be X# that can turn in a packet, recorded excerpts. They’re sifted for accuracy, and if they used the right recording methods, as required. If they hire, it’s their choice. Just look how they handled the trombone vacancy in Chicago.

[Chris Olka]

The first piece of advice I give students who are preparing for an orchestra audition is: Don’t play for tuba players. Play for musicians who might actually be on the committee.

Other instrumentalists listen for different things than tubists. Tubists listen for things that they struggle with, and thus focus on these issues when listening to other tubists. Examples of these are: even sound, volume, consistent tone color, and consistent articulation.

Having sat on and chaired committees for more than half of TWO brass sections of two major symphony orchestras over the last 25+years I can share this observation. Committees listen for: Control of dynamics, variety of tone colors, shading of articulation that’s appropriate to the “style” of music being played, and most importantly…a clear musical message associated with the excerpt that demonstrates a knowledge of the score and context of the tuba part within the orchestra. Focus on the “nuts and bolts of tuba playing” is rarely a main theme for an orchestral audition committee. This assumes that all of the players in a “Final round” are demonstrating a high technical level of playing.

In all of the committees that I’ve been on, we hired the best “Musician”, NOT the “best player”. The implication being that there was no doubt about the ability of the player’s technical ability, but that we hired the best “Musician.”

The final piece of the “puzzle” is this: Can an audition candidate make immediate and convincing changes to their playing when asked to by the committee. Can the player make the requested change in a convincing way? Don’t make “us” ask you twice to change something about your playing. Marginal or barely perceptible changes won’t convince “us” because we are constantly asked to change things by the conductor EVERY day. We’re looking to hire someone who is going to make the collective effort easy and without drama, on stage.

Now…it should be noted that other countries have different hiring and committee processes. In Germany, a number of orchestras carry two tubists because of the workload. This means that they may have the benefit of having a tubist on the committee to advise and consult with in the process.

Another example of a different situation may be for professional military bands that carry a section of tubists. In this case, there is very possibly a different focus on the auditionee’s skill set. They may be looking for specific attributes that lend well to the established “section” approach. This is equally valid and reflects the needs of the ensemble.

Now, as it relates to the subject of “Mock Auditions”, there is a tendency towards a committee that heavily leans into a focus on the “specifics of the instrument” because the committee trends toward staffing of only tubists, sometimes regardless of their particular playing situation. This is not to denigrate the members that don’t have meaningful experience in the idiom that they are judging. It’s only to say that the results of the audition may not always reflect what could be expected in the “real world.”

In any event, playing for Mock Auditions and seeing its results should not be taken as gospel for how to prepare for ALL auditions, but merely one of many venues to use as an aspiring player, when striving to secure employment in the best career possible in the music business. Full time music making. Many successful musicians have studied with players who never “sat in the back row.”

Just my humble thoughts…

[russiantuba]

The first piece of advice I give students who are preparing for an orchestra audition is: Don’t play for tuba players. Play for musicians who might actually be on the committee.

Other instrumentalists listen for different things than tubists. Tubists listen for things that they struggle with, and thus focus on these issues when listening to other tubists. Examples of these are: even sound, volume, consistent tone color, and consistent articulation.

Having sat on and chaired committees for more than half of TWO brass sections of two major symphony orchestras over the last 25+years I can share this observation. Committees listen for: Control of dynamics, variety of tone colors, shading of articulation that’s appropriate to the “style” of music being played, and most importantly…a clear musical message associated with the excerpt that demonstrates a knowledge of the score and context of the tuba part within the orchestra. Focus on the “nuts and bolts of tuba playing” is rarely a main theme for an orchestral audition committee. This assumes that all of the players in a “Final round” are demonstrating a high technical level of playing.

In all of the committees that I’ve been on, we hired the best “Musician”, NOT the “best player”. The implication being that there was no doubt about the ability of the player’s technical ability, but that we hired the best “Musician.”

The final piece of the “puzzle” is this: Can an audition candidate make immediate and convincing changes to their playing when asked to by the committee. Can the player make the requested change in a convincing way? Don’t make “us” ask you twice to change something about your playing. Marginal or barely perceptible changes won’t convince “us” because we are constantly asked to change things by the conductor EVERY day. We’re looking to hire someone who is going to make the collective effort easy and without drama, on stage.

Now…it should be noted that other countries have different hiring and committee processes. In Germany, a number of orchestras carry two tubists because of the workload. This means that they may have the benefit of having a tubist on the committee to advise and consult with in the process.

Another example of a different situation may be for professional military bands that carry a section of tubists. In this case, there is very possibly a different focus on the auditionee’s skill set. They may be looking for specific attributes that lend well to the established “section” approach. This is equally valid and reflects the needs of the ensemble.

Now, as it relates to the subject of “Mock Auditions”, there is a tendency towards a committee that heavily leans into a focus on the “specifics of the instrument” because the committee trends toward staffing of only tubists, sometimes regardless of their particular playing situation. This is not to denigrate the members that don’t have meaningful experience in the idiom that they are judging. It’s only to say that the results of the audition may not always reflect what could be expected in the “real world.”

In any event, playing for Mock Auditions and seeing its results should not be taken as gospel for how to prepare for ALL auditions, but merely one of many venues to use as an aspiring player, when striving to secure employment in the best career possible in the music business. Full time music making. Many successful musicians have studied with players who never “sat in the back row.”

Just my humble thoughts…

Thank you for this—very helpful and I agree whole heartedly.

I wanted to be clear regarding the ITEA mock orchestral auditions, which is normally an American model with lists similar to US orchestras. In fact, when I did the mock band audition, John Cradler gave great advice—and he mentioned he had been on several tuba auditions for the President’s Own.

A few years ago, I saw Phil Snedecor mention about his trumpet students traveling, spending money to take auditions, not allowed to record and got no feedback. I think going back to T.U.B.A.’s original competition, to provide audition experience, it would be ideal to have other instruments, and more important for those traveling with two tubas across the world, to get comments from other people that hear tuba differently. I didn’t win a decade and a half ago, nor make the final round, but the comments were well worth the travel.

Ideally, if I had control, I would put a top tubist such as yourself as the chair of the panel, like the maestro. It would be interesting to have a panel after on tuba trends they heard and how that would influence their decision on a hire and how they would like to hear the excerpts.

Every orchestra is different. Musical truths remain the same. We are a weird instrument in our orchestral role.

I will leave the poll up and repitch the importance of this to the ITEA folks to consider.

[bloke]

I'm sure Mr Olka is correct.

Thinking back a long time ago, I was almost hired for a job (a couple of the committee members made it clear to me afterward) based on the way that I played that silly little solo in American in Paris. In fact, I think they considered me the (means absolutely nothing) runner up, where there was a really strong player (way better than I am and with an important job today) who might have been considered to have been the second alternate.

At the same audition - remembering how I played certain excerpts at that time - I'm pretty sure I played Meistersinger (previous round) in a really boring (I'm thinking absolutely disqualifying) manner, and I can't imagine advancing someone who played that excerpt as I played it that day. I'm certain I played it without any musical phrasing at all.

I guess it's good to look on the bright side, and the bright side of that audition was the fact that the orchestra went belly up a few years later. .

My motive for auditioning - back when I did - was always misguided: I was simply seeking a side job whereby I could get affordable medical insurance to cover my family.

[MikeS]

... It's way more basic...but "basic" is pretty hard, and I believe a whole bunch of people believe they're up to "basic', when I know that I have to work really hard personally to be up to 'basic".
Imagine playing a C major scale at exactly a certain speed and with every pitch right in tune, and that there's a machine (a machine called "audition committee") following your progress past each pitch and judging the time through each movement from one pitch to the next.

Some time ago I was playing flute at an Irish music session and one of the other players recruited me to play for an Irish dance competition, called a Feis. In these competitions the dancers always dance to live music. I had never been to one of these before. He gave me a sheet with a list of tunes that the dancers could request. He suggested I take some time to make sure they were all well under my fingers.

My assignment was playing for 9-10 year old solo dancers. My recruiter had not mentioned that I might have to play solo. Each dancer told me what piece to play and the tempo. For each type of dance there is a tempo range the dancer or group can select from. I had a metronome with an earpiece. I would give the dancer a countdown and start playing.

Another thing my recruiter failed to mention was that any mistake the little darlings made was going to be my fault. I was not at all prepared for being screamed at by Irish dance moms while their daughters cried in the background. I might have thought I played it just fine but mom always knew better. There were a couple times when I did screw up and we had to start over with mom glaring daggers at me. Now, imagine doing this for three hours without a break and the next dancer to start ninety seconds after the last one finished.

About an hour in I started to get better. That was when I stopped just thinking about notes and clicks in my ear and really tried to play musically. I was initially so overwhelmed I had forgotten this. This was a mixed blessing since I did have a few moms say something along the lines of, “I wish you had played it that well for my daughter.”

That was truly the hardest money I have ever made. Like @bloke said, basic is hard. I probably drank a gallon of water and still lost weight. If I go to a session now and somebody starts playing ‘Boys of Bluehill’ I will find an excuse to leave the room. I would have voted for the mock audition to be judged by Irish dance moms, but Dr. Green didn’t offer it as an option.

[Mary Ann]

I would think the purpose of a mock audition isn't so much the results but the experience. Waaaay back when I did auditions, they were in person for the conductor of the orchestra, not a committee behind a screen. So the thing I would want them to get used to was playing in circumstances that were scary enough to mess them up if they let it --- and that experience would be the most valuable. Secondary is who is criticizing and what they are criticizing.

[bloke]

Experience is good, I suppose bragging rights are fun, but the feedback is probably the most valuable, and I'm not sure that tuba professors are going to offer the most helpful feedback.

As just one example of taste, tuba players really love it when other tuba players really dig into the low range, but other instrumentalists hear that as a distracting change of timbre -;as if suddenly another instrument is playing. (Just For what It's worth, that's a habit that I broke when a major orchestra for which I was auditioning was kind enough to offer that feedback to me, years ago) ... I sort of figured no one would really notice the difference, but a recording engineer who was hired to record every single concert of an orchestra I worked with for a couple of decades - per service, five or six concerts a year - also happened to be a low brass player. (I had no idea.) He came up to me one time and told me that I was the only tuba player in any of the orchestras that he recorded whereby when the brass got really loud, the tuba resonance didn't turn into an ugly growl in the low range.

ie: What do you know? Someone noticed , and thanks to those audition committee musicians for being kind enough to hand out written comments - letting me know that the "low range tuba growl when loud" is a big turn off to other musicians.

[1 Ton Tommy]

This may not apply to major professional orchestras but the tuba may be called upon to fill in for or support other sections. And that requires adaptability, both technically and musically.

This may be something the audition committee is concerned with more that the auditioner but I have read and heard more than once that committees are looking for musicians not technicians. So, young musicians are well advised to listen carefully to other parts of the orchestra and perhaps to double on an instrument with a different voice, and play unfamiliar idioms.

Over sixty years I've played all the brass except flugelhorn and it has given me an appreciation for the role of other voices in the orchestra and the ability to be adaptable. As tubist, I was recently handed the third trombone part for "Carmen." That required me to switch from as-written to an octave down within a phrase. I have been asked to play 2nd clarinet in A on Bb trumpet and of course have had to transpose from concert charts on Bb trumpet for symphony and jazz. And fourth horn queues come by frequently and the conductor often wants them played.

And sometimes I just have to fake it like when thirty pages into a musical I get lost 'cause I can't see the dancers feet (we later got a mirror in the pit) and I'm keying off the piano (she could see the stage) only later to find she was keying off me. I have had to mimic a bassoon, and to play the bass changes to "Sway" with no chart and play inversions to a bass part that was written both too high and too low to keep up with for "Sweet Georgia Brown" in a pops selection within a symphony orchestra. And to improvise over blues changes on trumpet in an on-stage theater piece. So over a lifetime of music I've been out of my lane a lot. I don't believe I'm unusual.

I don't know what actual audition committees require of aspirants these days but I think mock auditions ought to throw some real-world curves at them.