Old fiberglass sousas, help needed: identification, mods, and repairs.

[King Conn]

Hello everyone! Been a hot minute since I’ve been here. Today I am finally moving into more advanced projects after a few successful repairs (some big some small) with soldering. As some may know, I have two fiberglass sousaphones (I got them both for free :] ). I don’t have any new pictures, and they’re not in the best shape to take new pictures (being in parts all over the house and such), so I’ll link some old pictures from about a year ago in this post. The very first thing I need is some help identifying them. The smaller one with no bell and the dark gold-ish lacquer is believed to be a Conn 36K. Normal valves, not the short action, bands that wrap around the fiberglass with cork dampers to attach the valve section, and Conn 32K parts fit perfectly, bell and all. The one with the bell, but the very, very messed up valve section (those “repairs” are not my doing by any means, and I’ve already fixed a glorious patch job done by the same person), and the very, very obvious infamous King “red lacquer” is definitely a king, but we don’t know what model. I’ve had a few people tell me they think it’s a 2370, and it looks similar, but I’m no absolute expert so I wanted to hear thoughts as to the models. As of right now, here’s the plan: I’m taking the king valve set (which doesn’t work) and I’m going to find a way to fit it to an old rotary Eb (still trying to figure out how I’m going to make it work) that has valves so terrible and worn that it would be more expensive to repair or replace the parts than I payed for the whole thing, shipping from Ukraine and all. Now I have a complete fiberglass body with no damage (other than your normal scuffs), with no valve section. The Conn I have needs parts, but it has a working valve section, body, but no bell. Someone very bright bent the collar just barely on the bell, shoved it into the sousa, then snapped the bell trying to pull it back out (everything else is fine of course). When I swapped our brass 32K bell onto it last summer, it actually played a tad sharp, even though it’s fiberglass which tends to go flat as you know (at first I thought they were always sharp, but that was just my first experience with a fiberglass which just so happened to be an utter eldritch horror, brought to you by Jupiter). Once my director told me that it isn’t normal for them to play sharp, I got quite excited because that meant the Conn was quite literally perfect. Of course, not as rich of a tone as brass or silver, but it still had a rich, smooth, tone, and was still loud as brass.... but actually in-tune. Anyways, enough back story on it. Due to this and the fact that it is way too good of a Sousa to wait on being able to afford and find the correct bell for, I’ve decided to put them together very, very carefully if it all matches up. So far, it seems it will fit, with one adjustment. The fittings are different, (the conn has two O-rings and just pushes in, the king has one big O-ring that’s the only part that goes in and then seals by screwing on an outer fitting like a valve cap), but the raw brass pipe without the fittings seems to be the same exact size. This means, of course, that I just need to take the fitting from the king and put it on the Conn after lots and lots of careful measuring, testing, and second and third opinions. As of now, I’m measuring and trying to get the fittings off. If the parts won’t work together, no harm done, all I have to do is solder a fitting back on, nbd.

Anyways, sorry that was long. In short, I just need some second opinions. What models are you relatively certain both these sousas are, where’s a good place to find King serial no.’s (the old ones), and what do you think of this sousa-swap idea/any pointers? Don’t worry about the concert Frankentuba yet, as it’s very far off from becoming a serious project, and I’ll be back for more tips more closely related to that project when the time comes.

Thanks so much guys!

You can find my old sousa pictures form last year here:

[Three Valves]

From what I gather, it is a Conn or Conn replica if the MTS is where you think it would be and a King if it is not. ;)

I’m used to the metal turning into glass just where it does on what I believe is a photo of your 36k.

I noticed that Yamahas (as well as replicas) turn into glass much sooner. They don’t look right or very sturdy.

It would be nice if you could get a Chinese/Jimboni valve set to match up with what you have...

[King Conn]

From what I gather, it is a Conn or Conn replica if the MTS is where you think it would be and a King if it is not. ;)

I’m used to the metal turning into glass just where it does on what I believe is a photo of your 36k.

I noticed that Yamahas (as well as replicas) turn into glass much sooner. They don’t look right or very sturdy.

It would be nice if you could get a Chinese/Jimboni valve set to match up with what you have...

Thanks! And oh yeah, for sure. Even if it’s just a Conn replica, it would still be great. Don’t think it would be a yamie or a Chinese copy. If it is a replica, it would have to be Olds, Selmer, Buescher, etc., but I don’t think that’s the case cause those brands tend to do their own thing before they went defunct. Both of those sousas, conn and king, (even though I’ve yet to date them via serials) pre-date the 80’s. I know that’s a fact because of some digging in old school photos and a YouTube video uploaded from a camcorder from the early 80’s. I just need to date them for exact dates, lol. Both sousas are in that video, and I’ve determined that what I believe is the king gets a solo, so I can now know what both sousas sound like since the king isn’t playable. But yeah! Thanks!

p.s. it’s nice someone else appreciates Jinbao or however it’s spelled. From what I hear, they’re either a dud or well.... a dud. Others say they’re great. I personally own a Schiller marching euph (made by Jinnbao if you didn’t know), and of course it has some small issues since it was cheap, but it’s nice, even compared to US manufacturers, and considering it’s Chinese and less that $900, lol.

[bloke]

One style is an (Elkhart production - .734" bore) Conn model 36K, and the other style (with a brass brace up on the fiberglass body elbow) is a King.
I'm not sure of the OLD model number for the EARLY King fiberglass sousaphones (always .687" bore) and that IS an early one...but perhaps the model number was 1280.

[King Conn]

One style is an (Elkhart production - .734" bore) Conn model 36K, and the other style (with a brass brace up on the fiberglass body elbow) is a King.
I'm not sure of the OLD model number for the EARLY King fiberglass sousaphones (always .687" bore) and that IS an early one...but perhaps the model number was 1280.

Alright, thanks so much Bloke! I got the serial from the Conn, confirmed it is a model that was produced in 1966. It has the “H” prefix. Given both sousas are from a public school, and how “loved” they are, they were likely bought at the same time. I’ll need to do some digging to see if I can find a place with King serials, but I have the King’s as well. It has a weird engraving above the serial on the valve casing, it looks like it was stamped, and it loosely resembles the number “1”. It has a 6-digit serial that’s a 47X47X. Don’t know if that helps much of any, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on that as well as anyone else’s. As of now I’ve gotten the adapter from the king since I don’t need it there now either way, but I’m waiting a bit with taking the adapter off the Conn, cause it’s been difficult and not wanting to come off, so I’ve just left it for the time being until I’m super sure it’s gonna work. The Conn seems like the brass is more thin around the adapter, but it seems to be within what I would like to call a “margin of error” to still be able to re-fit the parts together, should my estimate or measurements be wrong. As of now they should fit with either a tad bit of wiggle room, or it just being a tad tight. Either way being a relatively easy fix.
Anyways, thanks so much! Sorry for the length, lol.

[bloke]

I'm thinking around 1971 or so, on the King.

Think about it again:

Why would one band director buy two different brands of sousaphones right at the same time?
99.99% would buy two of the same type, if bought together, yes?

...and - if you're referring to the length of your response - I type essays when answering "yes" or "no"...
Ask EVERYONE here...
Often, it's to pull folks' legs, or to troll people into (also) posting essays.

[King Conn]

Alright. Thanks! That would be around what my original guesses were, and I’d say you’re probably right since you’re on of the more experienced builders of this community, lol. I trust your judgement on that one. I do get you point there, it makes perfect sense, and has went through my head many, many times. Only reason I would think they were bought around or at the same time is simply due to how our school tends to operate (which has stayed well... pretty consistent decades latter which is evident through many, many records both inferred and directly stated, lol). The school tends to buy things all at once, so I don’t know if one was just used or directing new in the shop unopened after a few years or what, but we have a Holton trumpet, a Conn alto sax, an Olds trombone, and those two sousas from the 64-70’s era. Then the rest dates from about ‘84-‘90’s. So, although it doesn’t make sense why the different brands at the same time, I still bet they were likely bought as a group. I’ve not dated everything of course, but as you likely know, you tend to know the era a horn was built by looking at it and its case if you have it, lol. All in all, we’ll never know for sure cause I’ve yet to find yearbooks and/or pictures from that era. Well, besides the 84-2003 era, lol.

Yes, I was referring to my short paragraph or so essay! I tend to do the same exact thing, although usually not in purpose, lol. I just talk a lot and struggle to keep things concise. Something I’m working on and getting better at though, lol. If I’ve not mentioned before, my school has a tendency to buy products from the same manufactures - King, Conn, Selmer, Bundy, Olds, Holton. Occasionally there’s a few odd ducks out, but they’re usually Chinese crap (like Mendini) or excellent Chinese stuff (random unheard of brands) that kids from the past have left behind and never reclaimed. I currently play our only concert tuba, dubbed “rat tuba” (I will let you figure that one out), and the thing is so.... deserving of that name in many more ways than the obvious, lol. I could go on for hours about how terrible yet wonderful it is. Occasionally, the eldritch horror tends to favor you. This thing has some of the worst soldering I’ve ever seen, blob solder patches (which I fixed recently), terrible soldering inside the bell, no posts, background section soldered on crooked, mismatching serial number on each valve and the horn, etc. etc... I could go on lol, you get the idea. I have no clue why our stuff is the way it is other than the obvious answer of it being a public school, but even then it’s a bit... special, like some of the past decisions made (such as buying a band full of Bundy, specifically the era where it was 100% 50/50, either complete junk or the indestructible holy grail - luckily, it seems we have the latter, though it is still a questionable decision).

Anyways, thanks so much again!

P.s. while we’re at it, do you have any tips for getting that cranky adapter off of that Conn? No matter how long or how hot I heat it up it get the solder to start bubbling, it doesn’t wanna come off. I’ve even heated and pulled at the same time in a few different ways. It just plain old don’t wanna come off. I’m honestly debating just sanding it down to size, because I won’t need its adapter (I don’t actually know what it’s called, that’s just what I’m calling it. Where the O-ring(s) go on and ya stick in into the fiberglass) unless I decide to somehow take it off perfectly with no damage whatsoever and sell it along with its old body, which I think I’ll do. May not even sell, but it’s worth a shot. The more I can include with it, the better. Course, all I have is a slightly bent bell collar I’ll likely re-shape and then the fiberglass body. Not much, but it’s all some people need, especially those in this same hobby, lol.

[bloke]

"tuning bit"...??

With a rawhide or hard plastic hammer, smartly tap the receiver in which that tuning bit has seized (all around different sides of it), and it will eventually become free.

[groovlow]

Looks like i could use the King body
I think 1280 is the model, first generation glass?
General Location?
Joe H

PS I tried a PM but the panel includes "retail partners" in the add groups panel grayed out
I couldn't remove it. Same coming from this post or user control panel?

[King Conn]

"tuning bit"...??

With a rawhide or hard plastic hammer, smartly tap the receiver in which that tuning bit has seized (all around different sides of it), and it will eventually become free.

Haha, no not the tuning bit, unless it was auto correct lol. My phone is a bit weird with it, but one not so sure where it would’ve done that.

Thanks for the advice anyways, but I’ve already pulled a busted, mega stick tuning bit out of it. Unless this part is also called the tuning bit? The rubber O-rings go on the part that is stuck on the Conn. after a long even ing k finally got that same part off the king, and I’m currently sanding down the solder residue. It’s the part where there’s a circular fitting, similar to a ferrule where as I’ve said the rubber o-rings are, and it fits inside a slightly larger metal fitting attached to the fiberglass. Of course, that’s where you can disconnect the brass valve section from the glass body. I still Handy thought of taping it with a rubber or rawhide mallet. Something I’ve discovered that works just as well in small places, or just in a pinch, it a screwdriver, but only those with rubber and or plastic handles. It works like a charm. But I’m definitely going to try a rubber mallet next. Thanks again bloke!

Ps- I looked up some serial # lists for king, and I do concur it was likely made in ‘71, but still makes no sense as to why it would’ve been bought together, which. I still think is a pretty likely probability, lol.

[King Conn]

"tuning bit"...??

With a rawhide or hard plastic hammer, smartly tap the receiver in which that tuning bit has seized (all around different sides of it), and it will eventually become free.

Haha, no not the tuning bit, unless it was auto correct lol. My phone is a bit weird with it, but one not so sure where it would’ve done that.

Thanks for the advice anyways, but I’ve already pulled a busted, mega stick tuning bit out of it. Unless this part is also called the tuning bit? The rubber O-rings go on the part that is stuck on the Conn. after a long even ing k finally got that same part off the king, and I’m currently sanding down the solder residue. It’s the part where there’s a circular fitting, similar to a ferrule where as I’ve said the rubber o-rings are, and it fits inside a slightly larger metal fitting attached to the fiberglass. Of course, that’s where you can disconnect the brass valve section from the glass body. I still Handy thought of taping it with a rubber or rawhide mallet. Something I’ve discovered that works just as well in small places, or just in a pinch, it a screwdriver, but only those with rubber and or plastic handles. It works like a charm. But I’m definitely going to try a rubber mallet next. Thanks again bloke!

Ps- I looked up some serial # lists for king, and I do concur it was likely made in ‘71, but still makes no sense as to why it would’ve been bought together, which. I still think is a pretty likely probability, lol.

Alright, I noticed I left off some clarification and I’m not sure how and if you can edit a reply on this site, lol. There’s a lot of grammar and spelling errors in that post, once again it’s autocorrect, sorry. But what is stuck is that attachment, the one the rubber o-rings go on, that is attached to the main brass Baalbek section, and inserts into the brass fitting on the glass. That fitting doesn’t want to come off, but it very obviously solders on. I’ve already got some solder to bubble out of it, but it simply doesn’t want to come off, even though it should, lol. I’m thinking using the rubber mallet or my similar screwdriver method after I heat it up to tap it downwards to where the pipe gets smaller. Thoughts? Advice? Thanks.

[Three Valves]

...but still makes no sense as to why it would’ve been bought together, which. I still think is a pretty likely probability, lol.

Something like this...

“My band needs two of them there glass King sousaphones, I heard one at my conference and really like them Kings!!”

“I only got one, but I’ll let you have this here Conn for 20% less. Gotta move it and I don’t know when I’ll get another King”

“I’ll take it!!”

[King Conn]

...but still makes no sense as to why it would’ve been bought together, which. I still think is a pretty likely probability, lol.

Something like this...

“My band needs two of them there glass King sousaphones, I heard one at my conference and really like them Kings!!”

“I only got one, but I’ll let you have this here Conn for 20% less. Gotta move it and I don’t know when I’ll get another King”

“I’ll take it!!”

Haha! Yes. I can almost guarantee that is likely the scenario. There’s a video from the early 80’s of our marching band in which these Sousas were in use. I’ve determined the person who got a Solo (technically it was a Soli, but all you could hear was sousa lol) was playing the King sousa for sure. You could see the bands on the Conn that secure the valve section, but they were essentially a shadow as they’re very thin. However, the one who got a solo had a very, very large intense brass band on the glass body. The king has those, so it’s pretty obvious when you zoom in to see it. With as poor as our school is, it makes perfect sense.

If anyone would like to view the video I found a while back with those two sousas in it, I’ll link it here: https://youtu.be/hc0xLoAQ21U

[Three Valves]

@King Conn For a small band they showed a lot of enthusiasm

The soli starts at about 5:50, fun break!!

[King Conn]

@Three Valves

Yeah! Lol. Thanks! We definitely aren’t the best of course, and we’re nothing like we used to be then size wise or skill wise. We’ve not actually had a band program in about 18 years. Since 2003. It’s quite sad currently, but we’re building! :]