Dimensions of King detachable bell collar

[martyneilan]

I would like to know the ID (body) or OD (bell) measurements of the King 4/4 detachable bell collars. The more I play it the more I like my vintage 4/4 Meinl Weston 33, but I am curious how it would sound with a King bell if one would fit. Maybe a little more American roundness and a little less Germanic projection? I would also be curious to try it with a recording bell outside.
Although bigger than the Bill Bell models I believe the bell collar is the same size - maybe somebody has tried this before.

[bloke]

I suspect that knowing the circumference at the small end would be more useful to you than knowing the diameter. (??)

[martyneilan]

Anyone with a ruler or tape measure should be able to get an accurate ID of the collar on the body, or the OD of the collar on the bell. (The title does mention collar...) Measuring circumference can be a bit trickier as the typical tape measure most men will have only buckles around a curve, and will give an inaccurate measurement. Using a string or a cloth tape will produce a more accurate measurement but then there is the issue of overlap. However a straight edge is nearly foolproof for diameter as one merely needs to swing it around until it reaches the largest measurement.
I was briefly excited when I first saw your response, as I was expecting some useful numbers in one format or another.

[bloke]

Being obstinate - yet (I believe) very helpful...

I'm getting 19-3/4" as the bell's o.d. circumference of the bell's insertion point into the male collar.

I believe this measurement will be the most helpful to you (with that point found with a piece of non-flexible braided line) when determining a point at which to cut.

Obviously, if this circumference location is below where your mouthpipe solders to your bell, you may need to think further about this project.

Another obvious thing is that you're doing to need to discover whether a King detachable bell (and the would-be cut-off part of your Meinl-Weston bell) would end up being anywhere close to the same length...

bloke "but again: Regarding others' projects, I'm only a 'dent removal service' guy, and cannot be available in a design, assembly, nor advisory capacity."

[York-aholic]

Didn't some of the MW Bill Bell models have detachable bells? Perhaps that was the 32 and the 33 had a fixed bell. I don't know, but give me 5 minutes and I'll go measure the inner diameter of a King body I have here.

[bloke]

TIME’S UP, Y-a !!!

[LargeTuba]

I would also like to know.

[York-aholic]

Yeah, so I got doing something else...

6.25" ID on the female receiver of the body.

[martyneilan]

Thank you for a relevant and useful answer!
Attached is a measurement of the circumference of the collar on my original Meinl Weston bell, which appears to show exactly 21 inches using my wife's sewing tape.

PXL_20210906_230615804-1.jpg (59.91 KiB) Viewed 724 times

[York-aholic]

I'll go make the same measurement on a King bell, but my wife's sewing tape measure is blue...

[York-aholic]

Nope. 20” circumference.

06BDA87E-ABC4-44B1-8F7A-E68ECB34BBC2.jpeg (29.66 KiB) Viewed 721 times

2BCD4CB5-00C2-45F9-86D2-4976D0DE3CAB.jpeg (23.58 KiB) Viewed 721 times

19” diameter

[bloke]

read/think:

I gave the circumference (the BEST I could MANAGE to measure) of the OUTSIDE of the SHEET METAL BELL ITSELF - where it disappears INTO the male collar.

To hell with the collar hardware. Those measurements have nothing to do with "where he might ought to cut his Meinl-Weston bell".

WHERE HIS MEINL-WESTON BELL IS THAT DIAMETER is where he would need to (very carefully and very straight) cut it into two parts, if he expects King male/female collar hardware to fit OVER the two cut parts.

[martyneilan]

read/think:

I gave the circumference (the BEST I could MANAGE to measure) of the OUTSIDE of the SHEET METAL BELL ITSELF - where it disappears INTO the male collar.

To hell with the collar hardware. Those measurements have nothing to do with "where he might ought to cut his Meinl-Weston bell".

WHERE HIS MEINL-WESTON BELL IS THAT DIAMETER is where he would need to (very carefully and very straight) cut it into two parts, if he expects King male/female collar hardware to fit OVER the two cut parts.

Joe - you continue to dig in even when you have been misinterpreting this entire thread. Stop lecturing us, read exactly what I was asking for in the first post (not what you think I was asking for) and scroll up and LOOK AT THE PICTURE I POSTED! It is a detachable bell!!! I never said a word about cutting anything. I have gotten exactly the answer I was looking for, both approximate diameter (6.25") and circumference (20"). Unfortunately that will not allow me to use a King bell, as my picture of the Meinl Weston bell shows a 21" circumference (your preferred measurement) which is well beyond any fudging.

If more people would take the time to listen to what the other person was saying and objectively look at the facts, we would not be having half the divisiveness as when people make assumptions and go jumping off to conclusions before they even fully understand the situation.

Nothing personal, you are still the curmudgeonly Bloke we all know and love. Just the other day I gave your contact info to a bass trombonist looking for a contrabass trombone mouthpiece...

Friends?

[bloke]

OK...I see now...

Your picture was not in your first post (which I DID read on a laptop),
and responses were made (here) from a pocket-size phone - so your later-in-the-thread picture wasn't very noticeable.

-------------------------------------------
That having been admitted to (and I'm NOT attempting to salvage myself in this thread, and NOR am I attempting to cover the fact that I didn't understand what you needed ), you STILL might measure the BELL ITSELF (where it enters the Meinl-Weston collar).

IF (by some quirk) the small end of the Meinl-Weston bell flair ITSELF measures that 19-3/4 inches (and very likely: NOT) you could swap out your Meinl-Weston collars for King collars and STILL be able to use both your Meinl-Weston bell and King bells...

[York-aholic]

But you could cut a bit off a King bell to fit your MW collar.


I included the 2nd picture so you could compare the throat and flare to your bell. What’s the diameter on your bell?

I suspect a swap (even if you had a spare MW collar) wouldn’t make a huge difference.

[bloke]

Marty could do that, but I doubt that he wishes to sacrifice the ability to use his M-W bell.
Surely (??) he would like to be able to use EITHER the M-W bell OR a King upright bell OR a King recording bell...

spare M-W collar (hmm...) WHAT SIZE are the (defunct) Olds/Reynolds sousaphone and 5/4 tuba collars...??

LARGER than King...?? THE SAME AS M-W...??

...I actually AM trying to help, and I'm SORRY that I didn't notice your picture in your subsequent post, Marty.

But you could cut a bit off a King bell to fit your MW collar.


I included the 2nd picture so you could compare the throat and flare to your bell. What’s the diameter on your bell?

I suspect a swap (even if you had a spare MW collar) wouldn’t make a huge difference.

[York-aholic]

and I think Dan S. was able to make detachable bell collars.

However, buying a King upright bell, (likely) trimming the small end to be larger and either finding a MW sized collar or having one made, might get fairly expensive for an "I wonder".

I'd look at the two bell profiles and heights pretty carefully first, to make some sort of WAG as to whether the King bell might offer a more "American" sound.

Remember, the Meinl Weston Bell model was patterned after Bill Bell's King rotary CC (which had a stock King bell that had been cut down to roughly 16" diameter). Cutting it down was said to give a more focused sound. Perhaps 3" more flare diameter might give a more "American" sound.

Beats me.

[bloke]

OK...
Olds/Reynolds MALE COLLAR circumference seems to measure 20-5/8" with the o.d. of that male collar being right around 6-1/2"...

..so even Olds/Reynolds collars are POSSIBLY (but not IMpossibly) too small to substitute for your current German-made collar set (and to subsequently trim a King bell slightly shorter to fit).

Again...WOULD you care to offer the circumference of your bell (where it inserts into your M-W collar)? If you did that, I would be willing to check for Olds/Reynolds collar compatibility (though harder to find than King) POSSIBLE to find, and POSSIBLY MIGHT fit your M-W bell (and WITHOUT chopping on nor expanding your M-W bell).

ie. IF Olds/Reynolds male/femaie collars fit your M-W bell halves, you could do the "King thing" IF you found...
- one Olds/Reynolds female collar
- two or three Olds/Reynolds male collars
(and yes...King bells would probably need to be trimmed up a little bit, to fit into Olds/Reynolds male collars).