hornet nest

[bloke]

Which plays a better double-low E-flat...??

- a typical 4-valve non-comp. B-flat tuba, or a 3-valve King sousaphone - "no valves down"

Which is easier for a 14-year-old to play in tune?

- a typical German/Chinese/Russian-made 4-valve B-flat tuba, or a 3-valve King sousaphone?

Which usually suffers less damage and is less expensive to repair?

- a typical German/Chinese/Russian-made 4-valve B-flat tuba, or a 3-valve King sousaphone?

What sounds best in most any concert band...??
(particularly when an 11-to-17-year-old student
hasn't quite figured out how to get an instrument
to fully resonate, which is "most students")

- a run-of-the-mill "school school-approved-list" 3/4, 7/8, or 4/4 tuba, or a 3-valve King sousaphone
================================================

(ANSWERS: Any answer other than "3-valve King sousaphone" is wrong.)

[donn]

I have no problem with 3 valve BBb tubas, but for all purpose student use I would be troubled by the sousaphone's bell occlusion, i.e., you can't hear yourself as well as others can hear you.

[Stryk]

I have a friend that always had great bands and used sousaphones for concert band.

[Three Valves]

A fiberglass sousaphone in a wenger chair was good enough for me, it's good enough for you, punk!!

[Doc]

I have no problem with 3 valve BBb tubas, but for all purpose student use I would be troubled by the sousaphone's bell occlusion, i.e., you can't hear yourself as well as others can hear you.

Just play louder until you can hear yourself. Problem solved!

[matt g]

Was never a fan of the false tones on the King sousaphones.

[prairieboy1]

Try those false tones on a Holton "Mammoth" BBb 3 valve tuba! They are awesome!

[bort2.0]

My impression of using a bell-forward tuba in an indoor concert band: it had better sound good. Real good.

At it's best, it'll sound great and clear and be more bass in yo face.

At it's worst, it'll be like a ratty trombone but worse or muddy, or every inaccuracy magnified and also in yo face.

One upside though... If a 14 year old plays a Sousaphone in both marching band and concert band, then they'll get better at playing the Sousaphone as an instrument. And not just as some oddity that they use when marching. And beyond everything else, "time on the horn" is the only way to get better at it, and get everything from it that you can.

Leave that "different-shaped marching instrument" nonsense for the smellophone players. :P

[Jperry1466]

In the 1960s, most schools in Texas had only Sousaphones for both marching and concert. It was just what we had until my director bought a Besson compensating BBb for me. Now as a retired band director who does a lot of judging for our UIL concert contests, I see mostly upright tubas. Some small bands from poorer communities still use the Sousas, usually plastic, and I can almost hear the kid's tongue sticking out of the bell along with the blatty sounds. It almost always overbalances that ensemble and is not a pretty thing to hear.

[tofu]

.

[iiipopes]

I have no problem with 3 valve BBb tubas, but for all purpose student use I would be troubled by the sousaphone's bell occlusion, i.e., you can't hear yourself as well as others can hear you.

EVERY tuba has "bell occlusion" to some degree or another. You are either under the bell or behind the bell. No player really can tell how it sounds out front. I was taught as a freshman in high school when I first started on low brass to practice at home to get good tone and technique, then rely on the director. He actually stopped the band at one rehearsal and had a five-minute talk about we are all either behind the bell or under the bell and no brass player, from trumpet to tuba, can really know how it sounds out front by definition. He emphasized the importance of properly following any director we would ever play under who will give the proper indications about dynamics, what we call "the hand." The rest is an illusion from a combination of the echos around the room and the false resonance of the maxillary bone tranmitting vibrations to the inner ear.

Having played a King Sousaphone, I agree with bloke. Kill the hornets, destroy the nest. Bloke has set forth the way life is. Personally, I prefer a pre-MacMillan Conn at the present time, but it is the same difference.

[iiipopes]

As somebody who played a Conn 36K (early 70's - band probably bought them back in the mid 1960's) for marching and concert band as a freshman in HS I certainly know it was more than capable in both arenas. And if a school has a limited budget this makes excellent sense. They probably hold up better to abuse than any tuba ever could and certainly better than brass sousaphones. Also easy for any sized kid to hold, march with or transport.

But there is a caveat. If a school can afford to have both tubas for indoor concerts and sousaphones for marching it probably is the smart thing to have both. Kids don't want to be seen playing a sousaphone much less a giant white plastic one in a concert setting. It's not what they see pros or even most amateur bands use. They stick out like sore thumbs and kids most of all don't want to be seen as uncool or be made fun of. You better have a pretty thick hide to be able to take the grief that teenagers are capable at throwing at the odd kid out - not all kids are going to have the internal fortitude to take it. All though that seems to be a characteristic I've noticed that most tuba players have. Not being a music educator I don't know how difficult it is these days to recruit kids to play the tuba in middle school & HS, but I think it would be a lot easier to recruit kids if they didn't have to hold a giant white plastic or brass odd looking object in a concert band setting and be subject to the jeers of their peers.

This ^ My school could only afford one or the other. We had King fiberglass sousaphones for these reasons. We did well, indeed. Later, after my director retired, they were able to get King tubas for concert in addition to the souzys.

[Three Valves]

Kids don't want to be seen playing a sousaphone much less a giant white plastic one in a concert setting. It's not what they see pros or even most amateur bands use. They stick out like sore thumbs and kids most of all don't want to be seen as uncool or be made fun of. You better have a pretty thick hide to be able to take the grief that teenagers are capable at throwing at the odd kid out - not all kids are going to have the internal fortitude to take it.

Someone call the bully-cops.

If one is afraid of standing out in a crowd, being uncool or made fun of, go play football instead of being in band!!

[bloke]

I agree...
Your main objection (not actually yours, but the objections of others', which you identify) is "optics", as most children are going to sound about as good (if not better - and with more likelihood of the instrument being in working order) with something similar to a King (or Conn) sousaphone.
If I had ANY gig to play - suddenly my instruments all disappeared - and - in their place appeared a King fiberglass sousaphone, a Yamaha YBB-321 tuba, and a Jinbao miraclone, I know which one I would grab.

I've NEVER believed that "I only care about the sound" is a particularly genuine remark - coming from anywhere.
Even "ugly" instruments (brown-tarnished "professional" brass / Willie Nelson's or Stevie Ray Vaughan's rugged guitars) offer (well...) attention-getting optics.

The following is a POOR analogy, because they are different SIZES, but...
Given the unlikely task of driving from Miami to Seattle, and only given the choice of a new Dodge Charger or a checked-over ten-year-old Toyota Corolla, both will easily go 85 (about the fastest one can drive in the USA - without risking going to jail) but the Corolla - in my view - would be far more likely to make the trip, trouble-free.

bloke "yeah, speaking of attention-getting 'rugged' optics...My F tuba and comp-E-flat tuba are NOT very pretty - as well as the Holton B-flat that I just 'built'...but I'm NOT happy about that, and WISH I had the time to sandwich them into my schedule for refinishing."

As somebody who played a Conn 36K (early 70's - band probably bought them back in the mid 1960's) for marching and concert band as a freshman in HS I certainly know it was more than capable in both arenas. And if a school has a limited budget this makes excellent sense. They probably hold up better to abuse than any tuba ever could and certainly better than brass sousaphones. Also easy for any sized kid to hold, march with or transport.

But there is a caveat. If a school can afford to have both tubas for indoor concerts and sousaphones for marching it probably is the smart thing to have both. Kids don't want to be seen playing a sousaphone much less a giant white plastic one in a concert setting. It's not what they see pros or even most amateur bands use. They stick out like sore thumbs and kids most of all don't want to be seen as uncool or be made fun of. You better have a pretty thick hide to be able to take the grief that teenagers are capable at throwing at the odd kid out - not all kids are going to have the internal fortitude to take it. All though that seems to be a characteristic I've noticed that most tuba players have. Not being a music educator I don't know how difficult it is these days to recruit kids to play the tuba in middle school & HS, but I think it would be a lot easier to recruit kids if they didn't have to hold a giant white plastic or brass odd looking object in a concert band setting and be subject to the jeers of their peers.

[donn]

I've NEVER believed that "I only care about the sound" is a particularly genuine remark - coming from anywhere.

Whether it's genuine or not, it's coming from someone who doesn't know much about public performance, or doesn't care.

[Yorkboy]

5BD2D083-FCEF-4FB5-9386-8663C7B5120A.jpeg (160.88 KiB) Viewed 669 times

[Yorkboy]

5BD2D083-FCEF-4FB5-9386-8663C7B5120A.jpeg

I love that book. The euphonium player one is the best.

[2nd tenor]

I’m a firm believer in keeping things simple and as such think that the value of three valve non-comp instruments is not sufficiently appreciated. Oh yes, a four valve comp instrument can do great things but at various costs that are not necessarily worth paying for when used in particular applications, indeed many applications simply do not warrant the additional costs.

I’ve a lovely four valve comp EEb here and an older imperfect three valve non-comp Eb too, the three valve instrument is the one that my hand reaches for. As a youth I learnt on an old three valve non-comp Eb and in adjoining Education Authority areas some other kids learnt on four valve comp Eb’s; when we met I played as well as them on a instrument that was easier to move around, less expensive to repair, less expensive to buy and available because the money (budget/funds) was spread across several instruments rather than all tied up in one.

A pal and I were playing a few days ago. He had a Band supplied four valve BBb and I had my own three valve Eb, the two separate Band parts are written in transposed treble clef for either Eb or Bb Bass and we cover the bass line between us (sometimes the note we play is the same pitch, sometimes we’re an octave apart and sometimes we’re playing different pitched notes in the same chord). He remarked that after back injury problems he sometimes struggles with the heavy BBb; on looking at his music there’s really nothing significant that demands the fourth valve that couldn’t be pushed up an octave and whilst compensation is nice to have it’s not that essential on a BBb. My Bass section pal is not an expert or professional player and he would sound much the same (just fine) on a non-comp three valve BBb. We over complicate some things.