The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

[the elephant]

… can you put the ring in your vice… and whack the post…

No, that won't work because of the captured barrel. I could cut it off and install it again, but the barrel needs to be replaced as it sort of <ahem> melted in two small spots. Also, I cut the retainer plug a bit too short. I now understand which parts have to be modified (and to what extent) and will do the silver soldering in my laundry room to mitigate the whole soldering al fresco experience. It's just one joint, so the fumes will not kill the wife or mutate the cats.

Probably.

I just bought replacements for these two parts, so I can fix this next week.

I’m sure that manufacturers NEVER lose anything on their buffing machines, and NEVER straighten them back out - prior to installing them on new instruments.

No doubt!

EDIT: @bloke — I completely rewrote this post while you were reading it. Read it again. I almost practiced a bit of brevity on the rewrite. HAHAHA!!!

[bloke]

Silver brazing little thin things to big thick things is pretty tricky.

[the elephant]

Yep. Add in the heavy wind and you have a recipe for a fun afternoon…

[the elephant]

I only worked for a few hours today. Only three pics.

First, I finally fit the new brace feet to the two 4th slides, cut two posts, and installed them. I think I will be leaving the design of the 4th circuit alone. This is an F tuba and it is a low C/B/Bb that works well. The loop I was envisioning was much less open in the wrap, and I am afraid of messing up something that works very well. What I intend to do, though, is to make a new "hoop" that is of the same Miraphone tubing as I used in the rest of the loop. OR (more likely) since this works well I may just fill the hoop with lead and bend it correctly. It is pretty wonky. The only issue is that one small section must be UNbent, and never goes well, ever. But it is just a little bit, so maybe…

Front and rear (not upper and lower) 4th slides, ready to install…


Next, I decided to clean up the shape of the thumb lever bracket I made yesterday. It had a lot of flaws and divots that I wanted to try and clean up. Any unfixable boo-boos will have to stay, because I am *not* making another one of these behemoths.

I paid attention to flattening the sides (one had a bow in the middle) and relieving the sharp corners/edges. I also tried to do a nicer job of rounding the part around the thumb ring mounting boss…


Finally, if you will remember, the thumb ring I had been using was made by Jürgen Voigt in Germany. He makes the ones used by Meinl-Weston (and B&S?) piston tubas that use the "Big Valve" piston set. It was nice, but it was unable to locate my thumb in anything other than a very uncomfortable place that also forced my hand diagonally across the finger buttons, so my pinky sat on the button on its 3rd joint, and this makes for lousy low range technique.

The thumb ring that came on the horn is a super-fatty that Willson continues to use — or they did until the son took over. I am not really sure what he is using. Whatever. So this excellent ring was mounted up in a location that was even worse for my hand. It was so bad that I just took it off the horn after a few days of getting familiar with it. Further, it was silver soldered to this beautifully shaped bit of 4 mm sheet brass, but it was tiny, and it was this weird, triangle shape. It looked really wrong. On his later Willson 3200, this was corrected, but on other Kurath F tubas, I have noted the same odd placement of the ring, like it was an afterthought as to where it needed to be and how it would be mounted there. It was nicely hammered to fit the curve of the slide tube plate, but it was such a weird shape that it looked exactly as though he looked in a junk box for some 4 mm pate, found this little offcut, and said, "Eureka! That's it!"

I have wanted to reuse that original fatty thumb ring. Last night I remembered a detail about the Instrument Innovations brace socket that I am using — that I screwed up and ordered two replacement parts for last night — and that was that the plug part is weight-relieved with a hunk drilled out @ .25" through most of the part. This is soldered into a fat, hollow tube on the bell section of some top-shelf trombones. The relieve, however, was what I used on my Holton, using .24" rod stock *inside* the plug. It made for some *very* nice and strong detachable braces.

I remembered that I still have some of that nickel silver .25" rod. So today I punched a locator divot in the ring set it up in the drill press, and slowly (using like eight drills in increasing size) opened up a quarter-inch hole through both faces of the ring (as it is a hollow tube), and the rod fit the ring perfectly. So I took measurements, tried to pre-round the edge that would protrude through the inside face of the ring, and then silver soldered it together. It came out pretty well. I like it.

The ring, in case anyone is interested, is made of tubing that is 3 mm thick, so it is not like a beer can, nor is it solid.

Cleaned-up thumb ring bracket and new thumb ring…

[the elephant]

Today was one of those "so busy I forgot to eat" days. I put in eight uninterrupted hours on this stupid spittoon.

I keep finding things I need to do *before* I do what I want to do. "Oh, the timing belt? You'll want to do the water pump and thermostat while you're in there. And a coolant backflush to clean out your heater core. Yep. Better do all that, too."

I decided that since this last week has been me finally polishing off all the make-it-myself parts and other tasks I had been putting off, I would go ahead and do the truly onerous task, which is to take it all apart and fix every detail. Now that all the tube lengths are known, alignment issues are identified, and final part exchanges have been prepared I am ready.

I decided to leave the stock 4th slide routing but will make adjustments to my two slides to allow the hoop to move upwards about half the distance I wanted, which will make for a better left-hand position. So with that decision made this morning I started working and after a few moments realized that I had taken apart the whole valve section.

After everything had been cleaned of excess solder, cleaned of flux, buffed, and washed in soap and water I was able to start making all the adjustments. I had to make small adjustments to nine inner or outer tubes. Each was very short but took just as long as the initial cuts, so this took some time. The first thing I did after that was to build the 1st slide again. I learned a ton about soldering massively thick brass to paper-thin stuff. Thank you, welding! So my approach to dealing with the heat needed to remount the very thick 5th lever bracket and the new thumb ring base plate was much better this time around. in fact, my order of operations was right on the first try for every task I did today because I had to teach myself how to do some of these normally easy tasks. (This tuba has some weird things about it that have caused me to lose sleep at night trying to figure out why my normal procedures were not working at all.)

So, where I am today, is valve section off, 1st, 2nd, and both 3rd slides installed with excellent alignment, all cut to the improved lengths, with no goofiness or compromises. I have the thumb ring plate on, too. I have all the crapola that I could reach with my buffer off. I did a 30-minute hand polish to better see what I have left to do tomorrow for cleanup work.

Oh, and @bloke, I thought long and hard about what you said about round brace flanges looking Euro and diamond ones looking American. So I salvaged all the diamond braces and am also ditching all the really terrible round ones that came on this tuba. I replaced them all with Miraphone round feet from their more modern tubas. The look great, too. thanks for the attitude adjustment, man.

I am giggling at how well my 1st and 2nd slides work. Holy moly! Both 3rds are fine, too, but I don't really care about them so long as they move when I want and stay put until I move them again, without having to bust a gut to pull or push them.

Tomorrow I will sit at my bench and listen to Aretha Franklin, Sam & Dave, the Temptations, Ella, Louis, and all my other friends while I clean up every bit I can reach with my scraper, sandpaper, lamp wicking, and polish, and then I will hit the whole thing with my 2" handheld buffer to even it all out.

I missed lunch and had a can of Ravioli and a spinach salad at 8:30 tonight. I am tired. Goodnight!

Sexy centerfold shot…


… and again…


This whole part of the tuba is greatly improved now. I can't wait to get it back together so I can play it again. I hope to have it completed in time for my Easter gig.


Upper 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. Note the huge "barbell" thumb ring base is gone from the slide tube now, removing one more item from the outer slide tube, which is an improvement.


Lower 3rd slide…


I was worried that my too-thin flange would allow this big-ass thing to flex. I am pleased to report that, at least for now, it is rock solid. I pre-tinned the flange to ensure that I would get every bit of that contact patch flooded with solder. It is solid, baby.


I have a nickel silver cap for the 2nd slide and a nice pull ring on a 3" long rod that I will add in the future. I cannot get my ham hands in there to move the 2nd slide. Water gets trapped in it on occasion and I have to pull it and 1st and then tip the tuba back over my shoulder to get that pesky flubbing to stop. This has to be done about once every hour of heavy playing. Anyway, having the action of this slide so nice now and adding the easy-access pull ring will make these moments less clumsy. Note how pitted the crook is. The horn has large areas that are like this. I think one of the POs must have eaten a lot of raw meat. And how 'bout that sexy Miraphone brace…???

[bloke]

I recovered from the stigma of putting water keys on upper slides, installed some, and have been smiling ever since…

… except when one of my music directors told me that upper slide water keys are not allowed to appear mounted on tubas his orchestra (affects the sound/creates false nodes/distracts the timpanist from the baton/etc.); that made me frown.

Thank goodness next weekend’s pops concert is all cimbasso. That will give me time to take those upper slide water keys back off and patch over the nipples with those little cute little round patches - that people put on their PT6p’s ‘n’ such.

…oh…
…and never use a euphonium to play “March to the Scaffold”. I raised my hand, got the music director’s attention, and talked about the fact that I was playing euphonium (while the music director was wasting time talking to the strings about their parts). He told me he would talk to me about it later… I assumed he meant about 45 seconds later, so I walked up to the podium and continued talking to him about me playing the euphonium on the March. He got really angry…
…so never play a euphonium in a symphony orchestra, unless you want to almost get fired.
Music directors obviously hate the euphonium almost as much as Verdi hated the tuba.

PM me for much more information about this.

[prairieboy1]

Thanks for posting such great photos and descriptions of your work. It will be a grand day when you can play it again!

[bloke]

yep.
Wade’s pics are really well-done.
…as is the fabrication.

The thumb ring thing turned out really well, and I’m eager to see how the two rotors and their linkage turn out.

(...and sorry to all for the SILLY post - just above...I started laughing at my own STUPID sense of humor...the type of stuff that one thinks up when they are very tired - ie."slap-happy", couldn't stop typing, and couldn't resist hitting the submit button.)

[the elephant]

The two replacement parts for the thumb ring arrived a day early, so I have a completed thumb ring a day early.

Cool.

While none of this is perfect, it was all freehanded/eyeballed, so I'll take it if only to be able to move on. Now I can build a new lever. This relocation of my thumb position will greatly improve my physical comfort and ability to play for extended periods without sharp pains in my right thumb.

[Doc]

The two replacement parts for the thumb ring arrived a day early, so I have a completed thumb ring a day early.

Cool.

While none of this is perfect, it was all freehanded/eyeballed, so I'll take it if only to be able to move on. Now I can build a new lever. This relocation of my thumb position will greatly improve my physical comfort and ability to play for extended periods without sharp pains in my right thumb.

That looks like a hell-for-stout thumb ring. ME LIKEY!

[Three Valves]

One of the coolest features that I appreciate on my new tuba is the actual, round, ring like thumb ring!!



I do not like flat, flimsy, cutting or otherwise uncomfortable thumb rings.

[bloke]

This is only in response to the just previous “I don’t like non-cylindrical material thumb rings“ post:

On factory-made instruments, I reposition thumb rings so as I never touch them with the inside surface (the side towards which the joint bends) of my thumb.

With instruments that I assemble for myself, I do the same thing.

Due to this, Miraphone-style and Yamaha-style thumb rings (pointed-ends prolate spheroid stock) don’t bother me at all.

I do tend to go to a great deal of trouble - with my personal instruments - to try to eliminate them distracting me from what I’m doing in any way.

That having been said, I guess if I ended up with an instrument whereby I was forced to touch the ring with the inside surface of my thumb, it would probably need to have a ring that’s made of cylindrical material.

If I owned a Kurath-made instrument, I would want the thumb ring to be cylindrical material style just because that’s the oem style installed on these instruments.

bloke “I’m not really sure that I actually need thumb rings on my instruments, but they certainly are there. I’m thinking that they come in to play more with marching.”

[the elephant]

I hold the horn by the valves (fingers between and beneath the buttons, curled over the top caps) and use the thumb ring whenever I shift in my chair, which is constant, due to both *my* weight as well as the weight of the Holton and this tuba, both of which cut off the circulation to my right foot because I can only get them high enough by holding them on top of my right thigh.

Everyone has different needs.

And I love my Miraphone ring — on a Miraphone tuba. I got the Voigt (MW supplier) thumb ring for its utility but was not enamored of the ring's shape. However, after years of use, I think I may prefer it.

I had planned to reuse the same unit to save money, and I thought it looked pretty cool on both horns — sort of a Danny Devito/Arnold Schwartzenegger "Twins" thing (unrelated but dressed up the same). When I started this I realized that at some point I would need to relocate the thumb ring because as much as I liked it, on this tuba the Voigt setup was physically hurting me. When I figured out what the issue was and how the Voit ring would not be usable I revisited the fatty Kurath/Willson ring. I forgot how much I liked the ring like that on my two Cerveny tubas and decided I might try to use it instead of the Voigt ring.

And that was what ended up happening. I have very particular tastes, as you know, and with rings of any sort, I really hate the one that was on my Alexander, all sousaphone rings, and old US-made tuba thumb rings, all of which are thin, easy to bend out of round, and generally pretty much afterthoughts by the designers. I like just about all rings on Euro tubas.

[the elephant]

I deviated from my plan to clean up the mess on the valve section and work on reshaping the hoop of the 4rh circuit. Instead, I decided to go ahead and build an extended pull ring for my 2nd slide. I was staring at some of the parts that I planned to use for this and sort of just started doing that rather than sticking with The Plan.

Well, it had to be done at some point — so why not today?

I had to hack up an old Kanstul nickel silver 2nd crook for their F tuba (c. 18 mm bore) that can only be used on a Kanstul valve set, and I dislike them quite a bit, so it was scrap when I got it. To that, I silver soldered the socket from one of those Allied Universal Brace Kit packs that I love so much. I ground off the flange, dimpled the section of the crook I had cut out to give it a location point, and opened up the pinhole at the bottom of the Allied socket. It is not perfect, but it is very decent, so far as the socket being parallel and coplanar with the 2nd slide on the horn. I silver soldered a small section of another used Allied brace flange to the ring I had selected for this. Then I snapped up a length of brace rod from the same used brace and used it without really measuring it. It *looks* correct to me and in my awkward, inaccurate hold of the loose valve section it seems to work well. The rod is soft-soldered into each socket, so any needed adjustment will be easy if I decided I want it to be longer or shorter.

It is at a weird angle to fit between the 1st and 3rd slide and still be accessible when I play. I may make it longer, but the longer these are the more they can bind when you move the slide because the crook can get a little deformed and twist against the inner slide legs.

I am surprisingly pleased with this. I did not think it would make a big difference, but I was wrong; it solves a couple of long-standing problems I have had with this tuba.

Excellent!

Hot-cha!


The crook cap is not very pretty, but I was in a hurry, and buzzing it straight across the bottom was expedient.




All the Willson 3200 and the older Kurath versions have the 3rd slide angled so the 2nd slide is captured unless you removed (or pull a long way out) the 3rd slide. That is just stupid. There is no acoustical voodoo in doing this. It is just stupid. And did I say stupid yet? Getting my big paw in that tiny space to pull the dainty little girly-man ring that came on the horn is impossible. (It is a good bit smaller than a trumpet 3td slide ring. I could wear it as a pinky ring. If I liked pinky rings. Which I don't.)


The 2nd slide had to be shortened enough that now it can be removed without moving the 3rd slide. Another niggling annoyance solved!

[bloke]

I find it interesting how many problems "we" (a pet peeve of mine: people who refer to themselves as "we professionals"...ie. self-elevation)
can solve (with FEW resources) that (some) fabricators can't seem to solve (or don't even notice...??) with nearly unlimited resources.

[bloke]

@the elephant

Wade,
I still haven't cleaned up my "cimbasso-building" desk. (Yes...I'm that damned hopeless.)
I saw these, and wondered if I should mail them to you for your "European instrument" project.
They are nickel-brass and 1-1/2" x .025"
I don't need any more of these (obviously) for this project (there's some buffing/lacquering to do...and finishing up a #2 slide lever stop, but no more bracing) and - if I need more (though I don't remember where I found them online), I can probably find them again.

eh...??

[the elephant]

… people who refer to themselves as "we professionals"...ie. self-elevation)

Err… did I do that? Sorry!

[the elephant]

I saw these, and wondered if I should mail them to you for your "European instrument" project.

Heck yeah. If nothing else they can feed my nickel silver fetish. HAHAHA!!! PM me how much you need for them. I will send you my address.

Thanks! I have need of two of them right now, maybe all three.

[bloke]

no, you didn't...
I try to never do it (because I hear one person in particular - in person - do it - ' brass player in an orch. local-to-me, and it grates on me).

… people who refer to themselves as "we professionals"...ie. self-elevation)

Err… did I do that? Sorry!

[bloke]

I'm just going to tape them to some cereal box cardboard (about two inches apart from each other, stuff the envelope with junk mail ("padding") until its JUST UNDER an oz., and put a 1st class stamp on the envelope.

...WERE IT that I wished to SELL something, I'd offer to sell something that's actually WORTH something.
I'm seeing 402 N. M...yes?

fwiw...Is "parking your cars on the sidewalk" a "think", down there...??

I saw these, and wondered if I should mail them to you for your "European instrument" project.

Heck yeah. If nothing else they can feed my nickel silver fetish. HAHAHA!!! PM me how much you need for them. I will send you my address.

Thanks! I have need of two of them right now, maybe all three.