Water keys in ... "odd" places

[kingrob76]

I've owned a York-style or influenced instrument of one form or another since 2000 or so and one constant is water collection in the 3rd and 4th valves necessitating pulling the top slides and dumping water. Pulling the bottom slides doesn't quite do the job. 1st valve is the runner up here, as that sometimes needs a pull as well to be completely empty.

What's impact of putting a water key - like a Saturn water key - on the TOP slide so that when the horn is sitting in its bell a simple press of the key empties most of the water? This would probably only work on vented pistons I would think, but the fact that I've never seen this makes me wonder if there isn't an impact here that I'm not aware of.

[bort2.0]

My old (rotary) Neptune had water keys on the tops of the 3rd and 4th valve slides.

[the elephant]

There are a couple of ways to deal with this issue. Here are two of them…

This was my Holton Monster Eb (next to a King 2341 for size comparison) with Amado water keys on the upper 3rd and 4th slides. It worked pretty well, but not as well as I had hoped.



On my Kurath I placed an Amado on the actual problem spot, which is the knuckle on the 3rd tube that travels up from the valve. THAT is the trap on most horns. On my Holton, I have this same setup, but also have one on the same knuckle just below it for 4th. (On the Kurath this is not an issue as that knuckle points downwards and the slide crook has a water key.)

[bloke]

I might not understand your question, but I’ve decided that water keys on upper slides make a lot of sense. I put one on upper #1 on the small Holton B-flat I built, and I’m probably getting ready to put one on the #3 slide.
Due to the Miraphone-model-98 “STYLE” of fourth circuit wrap of that HOLTON instrument, it doesn’t need one on upper #4, and I’m not eliminating the possibility of putting one on upper #2.
As I’ve stated over and over, I don’t like the nuisance, urgency, or musical distraction of pulling slides and dumping water, particularly not when most of the slides can be emptied with water keys, yet there are still some that need to be pulled and dumped… (Why?)
Others disagree with me on this and everybody has their “thing“, but I just like good old fashion B-flat/sears-and-roebuck lever-style water keys.
Gadgety water keys all have their drawbacks, all rely on their inventors staying in business to replace components, and most-or-some of them don’t seem to be able to quite handle the volume at the speed that I need water to leave a tuba. I just don’t fret over a lever-style water key nipple causing some “acoustical disturbance“ in these giant fog horns Into which we buzz our lips.
Others will adamantly disagreed with some or all of my opinions. Luckily, we each have the freedom to do to our own instruments as we wish.

[Sousaswag]

I’ve found that on my Willlson, water LOVES to collect in upper 2 and 3 slide crooks. The previous owner(s) let it go to the point that rot is starting in both of those crooks. Nothing is through, but enough water collects there that I try to refrain from leaving this horn out on the bell. I’d like to put some water keys there, but I’d rather replace the crooks when the time comes before I do that.

[kingrob76]

On my Kurath I placed an Amado on the actual problem spot, which is the knuckle on the 3rd tube that travels up from the valve. THAT is the trap on most horns. On my Holton, I have this same setup, but also have one on the same knuckle just below it for 4th. (On the Kurath this is not an issue as that knuckle points downwards and the slide crook has a water key.)

This is interesting to me. Any reason you picked Amado keys over any other key?

[the elephant]

They were at hand, and a normal water key won't fit in the spots I added the Amado keys. Also, I only use the Amado COPY sold on eBay by Jupiter. It is Chinese but very well made, and the rear plate is a threaded screw and not the plate and a tiny C clip, which I hate having to work with.

Example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224680788809?h ... Sw9alhh8SS

MUCH better than an actual Getzen Amado water key, IMHO…

[bloke]

There is some gadgety water key maker who makes one that is sort of like an Amado, but it’s larger and sort of the shape of a space capsule… It is not Saturn, and it is not Joy.
I don’t know how to find it without knowing its name. I think they are capable of releasing water at a significantly faster rate than an Amado, but I still don’t want to fool with them.

I managed to install a regular lever-style water key here, even though remarkably cramped quarters...
Obviously, it's already time for a new cork (I use 8-cent adhesive-backed rubber ones - made of the same material as my synthetic piston washers)...and - as this assembly is slightly skew - I haven't bothered (as I'm going to move things around a little) to clean up the solder joints. I will admit that I had to employ a few "tricks" to install this in this location.



This UPPER #1 slide water key has proved to be INCREDIBLY beneficial:

(Also, the VERY small diameter and WAY too small circumference O-rings work perfectly, and never get pushed out of place.)

I put my entire hand into the "D" shape in this slide (from the back of the instrument) and - actually - don't even hold the slide with my fingers - when moving it. (I only move it in to play 1st valve C and 1st-and-2nd-valves B-natural - a B-flat tuba.)



bloke “ perhaps old-school to a fault“

[the elephant]

There is some gadgety water key maker who makes one that is sort of like an Amado, but it’s larger and sort of the shape of a space capsule… It is not Saturn, and it is not Joy.
I don’t know how to find it without knowing its name. I think they are capable of releasing water at a significantly faster rate than an Amado, but I still don’t want to fool with them.

Those are the POLLARD waterkey.



He mixes and sells some decent synthetic lubes, too, but he is mostly a trumpet guy. The nice thing about this trumpet waterkey is that he also makes a larger size for trombone and euph, which are overall larger, have a larger hole (flow capacity), and are radiused for larger tubing.

HOWEVER…

That larger radiused contact patch is still too tight for tuba-sized tubing, so some minor Dremeling needs to be done. I asked about a tuba-specific key (the same one but with a wider radiused contact point for tubes that are about .750" ID (whatever that is OD). He did not seem to be interested in that, though, a few years ago when I bought them. Maybe he would be, today. He has Harrelson Trumpets machining them for him. There are things about them that I dislike, but they work very well, do not jam like Amado keys, and move a lot of water quickly. They were also FORTY DOLLARS EACH three years ago.

[EDIT: I could not find a link to buy these from either Pollard or Harrelson, but some poking around got me a direct link to the specific size and version (large, raw brass) that I have shown here. The price has gone up 25% since 2018. They are now FIFTY BUCKS EACH. I can recommend these as mechanical devices, but not as out-of-pocket purchases. That is a LOT of money. If you NEED something like an Amado key these are truly a better device. Period. However, if you have room for a regular lever-style waterkey I would go that way. Just remember that these require a single solder point, and a regular waterkey needs to have two, one for the saddle and one for the nipple. And you have to line them up correctly, so it is harder to install a traditional waterkey. That being said, don't drill holes in your valve knuckles and try to do this unless you have done it several times before. Take it to a good tech. Also, a good tech will likely have a few small parts bins filled with old waterkeys, and if you don't care about looks you might pick one up for very cheap if you have that tech install it for you.]

Still, for a higher flowing waterkey in a very tight space, the Pollard keys are very good.

One of the plusses is that the back cap is a slotted screw, like the Jupiter-improved Amados that I like. AND, in a fit of excessive thoughtfulness that I appreciate, he has the slot radiused to fit the curve of a penny. That is the tool you need to service one — a US 1¢ coin (or a dime). I dislike his spring, and the radiused contact point, but everything else has been great on my Holton. I have three or four of them on that tuba. None on any others, and due to the cost I probably won't buy more. A price tag of $160 for four of them pretty much did me in. I am out of waterkeys, though, so if I need some in the future and the space I am working in is very tight, I would not balk at more of these, I would just apologize to my poor, abused wallet.

The Pollard Waterkey






I like that it takes a penny to open and close this. That means that you do not need to make sure of adequate room for a screwdriver behind the key as you install it. This gives you a lot more options. If you can get a screwdriver back there you are good. If not, but you can get fingers and a penny back there, you are also good to go.


The drain hole is a good bit larger than that of an Amado waterkey.




Here are the two that I installed on the two main water traps on the Nirschl-made piston set. The one on 3rd is a lifesaver. The one on 4th would be, except that the layout and GIRTH of my Holton Frankentuba are such that I CAN'T REACH THE DANG THING while the tuba is in playing position.

HAHAHA!!! Yep, I didn't see that one coming when I set all this up! I can use the key, but cannot blow through the mouthpiece (or even get near it) when my hand can reach the button.

However, I think that if I make it point backward (into the valve set) that it can be reached. I have to mess with that some, as the utility of a waterkey in that location is truly a benefit. But that knuckle is really buried in there…

[York-aholic]

I used two of the Pollard keys on a horn and really liked them.

[bloke]

Yeah I know… I’m a K.I.S.S. old fart.

My prediction, though is that the fewer gadgets, the fewer things that can go wrong.
———————-
If I could still buy a car with hand crank windows, I would. I hope my manual transmission cars keep running forever. I don’t need a stereo system in my car, either. Constant music (OK…with a few breaks purveying annoying nonsense agendae) sounds too much like work. Driving time is quiet thinking time.

…but I digress…

[the elephant]

Silly, stuck-in-the-past boke:

• Traditional water keys are a lot more time-consuming to install in a new location, and these have no leaky cork to replace. Unlike Amado keys, these do not ever get stuck as they do not slide — they are either open or closed, with no in-between.

• Traditional waterkeys must be wired down in two locations and the two *must* line up exactly right (unless the tech hides misaligned waterkeys by bending them after they are installed).

• Traditional waterkeys have six parts and these have four. Which one did you say was more complex, again…?

If you don't like them just say that; don't offer up reasons that are inaccurate. These are less gimmicky than a regular water key. They have nothing to align except for the two holes. They have only one solder point. They have fewer parts.

These are better in every way, except that they cost more.

If cheapness thriftiness is your reason then be honest and say that. No one faults a person for trying to save a few bucks — ever — unless they are complete jerks.

I do the cheap thing when I am trying to keep something within a fixed budget (for myself or others) and spend want I want to spend when I am in a position to do that.

As a matter of fact, you would not believe how frigging cheap I can be. For example, I reuse binding wire four or five times before I toss it out. I painstakingly unwrap it and use parallel pliers to flatten the twisted parts for the next use. I then wash them with a steel brush and Barkeepers Friend to nix the flux, then spray them with WD-40 and put them into a 12-year-old Ziploc baggie in the drawer where I store stuff like binding wire. I even reanneal it when I am low and cannot pick up a new spool anytime soon. Now *that* is cheap!

[bloke]

- mini-pistons that seize due to schmutz or (as an example: caused by personal illness) neglect (having to bang hard on them to free them from inaccessible angles)
- specialized miniature interior springs that break or deteriorate (lime or whatever)
- seized access ends (same reasons)
- gimmick water key companies that go out of business and/or the micro-manufacturer dies (with no one interested at all in buying or even taking-up-for-free their designs)

- I suspect that - even if/when Conn/Selmer goes out of business - I can harvest parts for them from the hundreds of thousands of them that are out there (though I won't need to, because they don't ever fail).
- "European" look...?? The Getzen's (Allied) bring in some brass ones from Europe, which are the same make (though: in nickel silver) that Buffet uses. I can toss in a few of them with a set of clarinet keys (for nickel plating) - when sending plating work off to Anderson.
- "expensive" look...?? It's not all that expensive to buy the "mushroom" corks from Oregon.
- Buffet/Miraphone/Kurath-Willson/Adams - look askance at gadget water keys.
- even Pollard - openings still are not as large - inside - as the nipples I use on traditional lever water keys
- slides (albeit rarely) suffering from accidents: Gadget water keys - when damaged - either require lapping, parts replacement, or complete replacement. Lever style water keys require pliers.

bloke "who - regardless of affordability - will never buy a Tesla, either...just too much gadgetry to fail (besides all of the other drawbacks/objections). I AM - as a matter-of-fact QUITE GOOD as a transfer shovel, spade, grain shovel, snow shovel, sharp-shooter shovel, mattock, and post hole digger operator - as well as - every decade or so - replacing their handles. I ALSO had people give me gadgets that transferred lp's to cd's - as Christmas presents...All I had to do was to - simply - leave them in their cardboard boxes, wait a few years, and those became obsolete...so I never had to deal with them. "

[the elephant]

They do not seize because they do not slide. Look at them. They are not Amados at all; completely different. And why is "much easier to install" a gimmick? And what is your definition of "gadget"? Because is it incorrect if you call any of them scary, challenging "gadgets" a gadget and not a lever-type waterkey, which was both a gimmick and a gadget back in the day. BOTH are a solution to the same problem: let water out of a tube. And I have never had one of these seize, but I have had professionally installed waterkey corks fall out at gigs so that I could no longer play because there was a big hole in the crook of my MTS.

Just admit that you are a closed-minded curmudgeon who has no real reason to dislike these other than they are new and you have no experience with them whatsoever, but you still feel compelled to comment on "how they work". (Seriously?)

But you just go on believing whatever it is that makes you feel like you are in your Repairman Safe Space. HAHAHA!!!

Closedmindedness, thy name is bloke!

[bloke]

' sorry...I thought that Amado wk's are the main topic, here...
(I guess I'm not keeping up with what's a sidebar and what was mostly discussed...??)

drill one hole - solder something over that hole: easy (the draw of "Amado" to that original promoter of them - in Wisconsin, while claiming "acoustical elegance" - just as with those disastrous cone-shaped F-attachment valves)

drill a hole - gauge the distance of a saddle (as well as align it) to a hole...I can understand what that might possibly be more challenging to some...but its a total of $7, works amazingly well, and dumps water fast.

I look at all of the click-together plumbing stuff - that's been introduced, and walk right past it. It's obviously easy to stick together, but doesn't appear as though it will be problem-free - past one homeowner.

HEY CHRISTIAN !!!
Your factory needs to more forward into the 21st Century.
Your designs are all antiquated, and
your tubas need high-tech water keys...and - oh yeah - you need to revisit "Presto" valves !!!

[bloke]

clarification to monitors/spectators:

We are jackassing and playing The Dozens.

I think mechanical water keys are fine...

...actually, even less: no opinion

[the elephant]

[kingrob76]

I am going to theorize that Miraphone, MW, Conn, et al use traditional water keys because they aren’t proprietary, and using Saturn / Pollard / Amato / Blokeys / whatever would involving paying someone for their usage. It doesn’t make them better in terms of function, it just means their usage is better for that particular business.

[TubātōTubŏtō]

This is why I come to this forum.