In praise of the American Sound!

[DonO.]

As I have recounted before here, I am a comeback player after having taken a short 20 year break from tuba. For most of my previous playing (so-called) career, I played European horns. Meinl Weston 25 for many years, and Amati-Cerveny ABB-681 for a long time after that. For my comeback horn I chose the King 2341. A real departure from what I played previously, with a narrower bore, bigger bell flare, and pistons instead of rotors. I am pleased with my choice of horn, having played it around 8 months now. Being over the hump of getting back into reasonably good shape playing wise, I feel like I can make some personal observations about tone.

I certainly understand that different brands of horns have different characteristic tones due to a multitude of factors, and different horns within the same brand and even same model can have different tone qualities. That being said, I believe that all European horns share certain characteristics, and American horns likewise also share certain characteristics. Thus, I speak of the “European sound” and the “American sound”. It also seems to me that the “English sound”, ala Besson et al, is it’s own thing as well.

For many years playing the German/Czech horns I truly thought that I preferred that sound. I would call it “tight”, “focused”, “clean”. Now that I have played the King for 8 months, I would describe the sound I’m getting as “big”, “broad, and maybe a little “dirty”? But whatever it is, I like it! It has a lot of character, not as sterile as the European horns I was used to. I have decided that I really like this American tuba sound. I wish I had given it a chance when I was coming up, but back then you weren’t taken seriously unless you had one of the European horns.

Any further opinions along these lines will be appreciated.

[Three Valves]

Ooooops!!

Yours is the New Style.

I agree. I find the new more nimble and versatile than the old.

[DonO.]

I had to stop writing my original post and meant to add: Do the rest of you think there is such a thing as American Sound, European Sound, and British Sound? If so, what factors do you think create the differences? Bore, design, type of valves, taper of the bugle, flare of the bell, bell diameter, something else? I guess I could have put this in the form of a poll!

[Wally]

I think you make some good observations. In high school in the early 70's we had recording basses: a big Conn, A Reynolds, and several three valve compensating Bessons. I thought the Conn lacked focus, and the Reynolds seemed stuffy, to me, the Bessons were the best of the lot. One year at Illinois Summer Youth Music camp I got to try a German rotary tuba for the first time, and I was amazed. It seemed so light, and it seemed alive in my hands. After graduation I scored a used Miraphone 186, and that is my main tuba to this day, having taken me through college, numerous bands and orchestras and even a stint as a Riverboat musician. I understand a bit more about different horns today, and I think if I were still playing a lot of trad I might be interested in trying a big bell-front American tuba again, but as it is, my 186 will forever be my soulmate!

[bloke]

Some of the (mostly: rotary) Instruments - with tall bells that do not widen out as much - sound a bit “throaty“, but some of them do not.

I think the 186 models are two of the exceptions that do not sound “throaty”.

By “throaty” I guess I mean that the sound seems somewhat muffled… not soft, but a muffled sonority – as if it’s somehow “stuck down in the bell”.

The 186 tubas are not the only exceptions.

Maybe, my favorite type of sound (looking around at the instruments that are here) is sort of in between what people label “German“ and “American“.

[bort2.0]

I think the 6/4 piston tuba sound only really works when the bass trombone player is strong enough to provide the (otherwise not-quite-there) edginess that a German-style tuba would provide.

[bloke]

The nice-to-me community band guys asked me if I would play a couple of veterans cemetery ceremonies Sunday and Monday, and I’m going to take the Besson compensating B-flat with the 24 inch recording bell… so how would you classify that sound? …”Americanesque”, or something…??
(I can’t think of anything much more “American“ than a big recording bell on a tuba, but these instruments were made in England…??)

sidebar:
With the big 24 inch recording bell – and being top action, This is probably the very first tuba I’ve ever owned that I could honestly say I had some sort of “ergognomic” issue with it. The bell adds a lot of weight at the top, and at the wrong angle. (not a problem at all with the sister E-flat, with it’s 22 inch recording bell). That having been said, I can deal with it for an hour or more pretty easily, and I like the idea that (outdoors) my sound is going out towards the people who are sitting in front of the band - rather than up into the stratosphere.

to the person who started the thread, and loves their King tuba:
There’s not anything much more “American” than a very wide upright bell on a tuba made in the USA, is there?

[Wally]

My High School band director's son wants to sell his father's Besson three-valve compensating BBb. He bought it at the same time he bought the school horns, but being his personal horn, it's in better shape. It has both the upright and recording bells. I'm thinking of buying it mostly for old time's sake, but the lack of a fourth valve gives me pause. That and the fact that every nook and cranny of my house is filled with some instrument or another!

[Rick Denney]

My High School band director's son wants to sell his father's Besson three-valve compensating BBb. He bought it at the same time he bought the school horns, but being his personal horn, it's in better shape. It has both the upright and recording bells. I'm thinking of buying it mostly for old time's sake, but the lack of a fourth valve gives me pause. That and the fact that every nook and cranny of my house is filled with some instrument or another!

Three-valve compensators may be better in tune that just about anything. The only thing you give up is the range below low E, which is requested in band literature basically never. The problem for me is that my pinky would not cooperate.

As to the other issues, when you figure that bit out, pass it along.

Rick “who knows what ‘declutter’ means wrt tubas” Denney

[Nworbekim]

i noticed that difference when i brought my 186 home and did an A/B comparison with my 2341...

i like both sounds... i can just play rotors faster.

we are supposed to play a Memorial service monday morning at a cemetery. i wish i had a recording bell horn... i'm going to take the king because it's lighter and i don't know how far away i'll have to park and what kind of terrain i'll have to navigate to get there. i'm tempted to take the 3/4 but i'm afraid it might be too soft.

[bloke]

for Rick,

The three valve compensating system – I continue to argue – is probably the best system for a whole bunch of school use, though it has been totally abandoned.

In practical use - though, the caveat is that most all of those that were made were Besson, and feature a notably sharp upper E-flat, for which there is no correction, other than manual.

[prairieboy1]

My High School band director's son wants to sell his father's Besson three-valve compensating BBb. He bought it at the same time he bought the school horns, but being his personal horn, it's in better shape. It has both the upright and recording bells. I'm thinking of buying it mostly for old time's sake, but the lack of a fourth valve gives me pause. That and the fact that every nook and cranny of my house is filled with some instrument or another!

Buy that Besson!! Those three valve BBb compensators are terrific tubas and I loved playing them! Let someone else deal with all of those tubas/instruments when the time comes!

[York-aholic]

The nice-to-me community band guys asked me if I would play a couple of veterans cemetery ceremonies Sunday and Monday, and I’m going to take the Besson compensating B-flat with the 24 inch recording bell… so how would you classify that sound? …”Americanesque”, or something…??
(I can’t think of anything much more “American“ than a big recording bell on a tuba, but these instruments were made in England…??)

The Anglo-American tuba sound?

[iiipopes]

The nice-to-me community band guys asked me if I would play a couple of veterans cemetery ceremonies Sunday and Monday, and I’m going to take the Besson compensating B-flat with the 24 inch recording bell… so how would you classify that sound? …”Americanesque”, or something…??
(I can’t think of anything much more “American“ than a big recording bell on a tuba, but these instruments were made in England…??)

"Our American Cousin" - just keep the sideburns trimmed.

[Three Valves]

I don't mind saying it;

The American Sound is exceptional!!

[Worth]

What factors do you think create the differences? Bore, design, type of valves, taper of the bugle, flare of the bell, bell diameter, something else?

I'm interested in an answer to this question also. The instrument may be of European design or manufacture (or a copy thereof) and yield an American sound or vice versa. I don't think thread responses so far have really answered this.

[DonO.]

What factors do you think create the differences? Bore, design, type of valves, taper of the bugle, flare of the bell, bell diameter, something else?

I'm interested in an answer to this question also. The instrument may be of European design or manufacture (or a copy thereof) and yield an American sound or vice versa. I don't think thread responses so far have really answered this.

Yes! There has to be some kind of physical reason for the different tone qualities. I for one don’t believe in magic, voodoo, or mojo.

And not to mention the fact that Chinese horns can sound either way, not unexpected since their designs are often copied from one or the other. I don’t think there’s a “Chinese Sound”.

[bloke]

The “American wind band phenomenon” (with the Sousa band probably giving it the biggest kick in the pants) is responsible for the “American sound“ tubas, which feature wide bells - in order to imitate the sound of a string bass.
I’m not so sure (to each his own) that it’s a particularly good idea to use them in symphony orchestras, but they look cool to tuba players, one guy and a prominent orchestra ended up using one a lot, so a whole bunch of knockoffs have been built, and have also been used in orchestras.
As Rick Denney pointed out, there are a few wide-belled models which both offer a wide sound and yet also a well-defined sound.
There is a pretty wide range of sonority which can be labeled “good“ for a tuba. Just please don’t make me attend any tuba solo recitals.

[Bob Kolada]

for Rick,

The three valve compensating system – I continue to argue – is probably the best system for a whole bunch of school use, though it has been totally abandoned.

In practical use - though, the caveat is that most all of those that were made were Besson, and feature a notably sharp upper E-flat, for which there is no correction, other than manual.

Is there some goofy fingering from the 7th partial that could work?

[bloke]

@Bob Kolada

nothing, other than epic lipping or some sort of wonky #1 slide trigger