sousaphone: small bell lure...

[bloke]

Has anyone (with a King or Jupiter sousaphone) ever stuck one of those King 22-inch "symphony bass" recording bells on their sousaphone?

What did you think?
What feedback did you receive from others?

...I'm sort-of assuming that anyone who DID ever try this out played this set-up in a dixie, polka, or NOLA brass band.

I've always noticed that there are people (those who own rare little sousaphones with c. 20" bells, etc.) who brag on them and seem very fond of them...and not just because of them weighing less.

[iiipopes]

I must say that even though I have not done that with the 22-inch bells, that some of the oldest Conn souzys, especially the raincatchers, had smaller diameter bells, either upright or bell forward. I believe even the pre-WWII 38K and 40K had a 24 inch bell with the huge throat. My experience is the preference for the 24-inch bell of the Conn 14, its predecessors and derivatives, rather than the "standard" 26-inch bells, for the simple reason of being better able to navigate doorways. Yes, that two inches does make a lot of difference!

[arpthark]

Sidestepping the conveniently placed setup for a double entendre above, I have to say I've been really impressed with smaller sousaphones -- the ones of which you speak are smaller than Kings and Conn 14Ks, right? A forum member has a very small Martin sousaphone which is really a delight. I've also played on a small Holton which I didn't enjoy quite as much, but that Martin... they were doing something right.

In typical TubaForum fashion, I don't have an answer to your specific question, but I think "small sousaphones" as a general topic is actually sort of interesting.

I want to say that Martin has a 20" bell, but if the owner sees this and wants to chime in, that would be nice.

[Casca Grossa]

In typical TNFJ fashion, I have nothing of value to add to this conversation. That being said, I was at a local taco festival yesterday, and showed up during a banda performance. The sousaphone player was using a pretty small sousaphone. Definitely a BBb and not an Eb. Unfortunately, I did not catch the name of the group or had a chance to talk to the sousaphone player. He was quite a good player and did not produce that blatt weasel sound typical of some banda players. He sounded more like he was playing a 6/4 lap sousaphone rather than a regular, small belled sousaphone. It was quite enjoyable. Now that I have added nothing to the conversation, I return you to your regular Bloke programming.

[Grumpikins]

Casca... i find your comment very fitting to the conversation.

"did not produce that blatt weasel sound typical of some banda players. He sounded more like he was playing a 6/4 " particularly catches my attention.

I recall reading somewhere that j.p.sousa really preferred eb sousaphones for thier sound and thought that they would become popular in orchestral settings. But im not 100% on that recollection.....


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[bort2.0]

Sidestepping the conveniently placed setup for a double entendre above

You know, usually I get your jokes right away. Can't figure it out this time..

I've never played the small Martin sousaphone, but he's told me all about it. As the owner of a different small Martin... I agree that they nailed this medium sized stuff (sample size = 2)

[bloke]

Olds built a few small and smalled-belled sousaphones, as a non-Eastern-European example.

King built a small/small-belled sousaphone engraved "Gladiator" (which may or may not have been a store-brand stencil...??)

I have a fiberglass Jupiter, here, which has a weird 4-inches-TIMES-TWO TOO-LONG tuning slide (so it's playing about 50c. flat).

I took off the silver-plated brass bell (crazy top-heavy), went up into the attic, and fetched a King fiberglass bell...ahhh...much better (but just as flat).

Once I fix the "flat" issue (as I have no King 22" recording bells here, but I DO have a BESSON 22" recording bell with the same tenon size), I'm going to try out the 22" bell for sonic characteristics and (hopefully) less top-heaviness.

For that matter, I ALSO have (both upright) a 19" Sterling bell (cut, with a Besson collar) as well as a 17" (early YBB-321 - same as OLD Besson BB-flat) bell with a Besson collar...
...I'm thinking that upright bells aren't much good for outdoor NOLA brass band gigs, though...(??)

==================================

VIRTUALLY OFF-TOPIC:
There's a beat-up silver Conn 14K ("Pan American") body/24" bell here and a completely (Anderson) rebuilt Elkhart 36K valveset that could become a sousaphone, but that ain't happened yet...and I've grown a bit weary of the really flat 1st valve C offered by those instruments. There's also an old HEAVY 1950's King in the attic (in pieces), but I'm probably going to - once restored - SELL that one (to some King or Jupiter school)...as I'm not interested in lugging all that weight. I AM interested in stumbling across a SECOND-generation King FIBERGLASS, as those were AMAZING.

[hrender]

I have not played one, but the 1924 model of the King 1250 supposedly had a 22" bell. A down-sized model, the King Cadet, was listed in the 1932 catalog. There was also a Cleveland Junior model in the 60s that was even lighter than the Cadet.

I really liked the late 60s-era King 1250 I played in HS and would like to try one of the smaller-belled ones.

[bloke]

I have not played one, but the 1924 model of the King 1250 supposedly had a 22" bell. A down-sized model, the King Cadet, was listed in the 1932 catalog. There was also a Cleveland Junior model in the 60s that was even lighter than the Cadet.

I really liked the late 60s-era King 1250 I played in HS and would like to try one of the smaller-belled ones.

Thank-you so much.
I believe the "Cleveland Junior" was obviously the CORRECT H. N. White name for the "Gladiator" (obviously, now believed by me to be a STENCIL name) that I encountered a couple of times.
One "Gladiator" I found was in such sweet condition (and satin silver) that I left it alone.
Another one was rough, so I put its valveset (full .687" bore, per your catalog spec's) together with a 4/4 King brass body, silver plated it, and sold that instrument to Memphis State University (pre: "University of Memphis").

[bloke]

After two tubing cuts (to get this Jupiter fiberglass up to pitch), ten solder joints, and swapping out one (found to be broken) brace with a sturdy 1960's Reynolds sousaphone brace (same spacing), I was able to play around with the 22-inch Besson recording bell...over an hour's worth of b.s., after (yup) cutting tree branches again, today.

OK...With the Besson 22" inch recording bell, it sounds more like a King "Symphony Bass" recording tuba, but with Jupiter intonation.

Also, the recording bell (shorter, obviously) required that I pull out that (freshly shortened) main tuning slide out an extra inch (so two inches of additional tubing). I believe I like the Jupiter fiberglass sousaphone (such as it is, and now shortened up to A=440...cough-cough...plus-and-minus) better with the KING fiberglass 26" bell.

[Breavdah]

I associate the "taco festival blatt weasel" sound WITH the 6/4 sousaphone, I don't think of it as a remedy. That's why I abandoned the 20K/20J, if you zing a note, or really do anything undisciplined, you get a little bit of that "spicy flavor".

Anyways. Bell size. Smaller can only help. We don't wear giant collars from the 70s. Why then do we wear giant Sousa bells from the 1900's.

[iiipopes]

https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=6713

[Casca Grossa]

I associate the "taco festival blatt weasel" sound WITH the 6/4 sousaphone, I don't think of it as a remedy. That's why I abandoned the 20K/20J, if you zing a note, or really do anything undisciplined, you get a little bit of that "spicy flavor".

Anyways. Bell size. Smaller can only help. We don't wear giant collars from the 70s. Why then do we wear giant Sousa bells from the 1900's.

This kid was playing with super clean articulation with a very dark and round sound. Not as spicy as I'm used to hearing with the super short, kind of blatty attack. Like I said before, he sounded more like a concert type, 6/4 lap sousaphone sound. I liked the way he was playing. Still retained the banda character but prettier sounding.

[bloke]

Every type of > consistent < sound with the tuba has its following. The really harsh overblown sound is okay with me, and the only issue I have with it is that it's often quite sharp. I'm thinking that this type of sound is meant to imitate roundwound bass guitar strings with the volume turned way up.

[bloke]

on topic:

[tokuno]

I think this is an Olds O97(?), the "junior sousaphone", and I've got one (although maybe not - I thought mine was closer to 14 pounds).
20" bell, super light, great-playing horn, with an accessible 1st slide and great valves. It balances well with a small ensemble (e.g. Christmas caroling), because it sounds more "tuba" than "sousaphone", to my ear. I don't know the bore.
It's not the whoofy sousaphone voice that folks expect in a full-size outdoor band, so I have a 1250 also.

During the past few years' crazy firestorms, some not-too-far-away communities were experiencing middle-of-the-night emergency evacuations, so we crafted a 'wake-up-&-drive' plan that included a line-up in our living room in priority order of the instruments we'd take.
My first-in-line was the Olds 97, because while I've paid 10x for some of the other horns, the Olds is nigh irreplaceable. I've kept an eye out for another (a friend wants one) for years, but haven't encountered one.

on topic:

[bloke]

Even though OFF-topic, this thread is encouraging me to (several months from now) pull down the King 1250 in the attic, make it viable, and have that (even though "1950's heavy") as my sousaphone...ok...at least until/unless I stumble across a c. 30-year-old (REAL fiberglass/REALLY lightweight) King fiberglass...

...as well as get the Pan American (de facto 14K) fixed up for sale, and getting the Jupiter fiberglass (with King fiberglass bell) sold.

At that point, I'll have ONLY "leftover" sousaphone PARTS, ALL the sousaphones (collected over the years) will be sold (as the stack of not-yet-restored 20K's will also be gone by then), and I'll have ONE sousaphone (great playing characteristics) for MYSELF.

bloke "not getting younger, and the barn junk needs to be converted to (albeit worthless) currency"