left: Meinl Weston 551 stencil (Brooks Mays) with 80:20 brass bell
right: Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (latter-1980's, fairly near the end of Edgware Rd. production)
left:
Made by B&S (shortly after reunification) machine parts (valves and slides) fit "fairly well", intonation is no-trigger-required (everything good, as long as the two lower G's are played third valve, and critical upper E-flats are played with 1-3). Some IDIOTIC things were done at the factory, which defined that it played far worse out-of-tune (and - I'm told - these idiotic things are "consistent"), but those were arithmetic (cylindrical tubing) problems, and not taper/complicated-logarithmic problems - thus fixable and - now - fixed. Sound is big, more tuba-like (compared to the Besson), and robust.
right:
parts fit, but pistons and inside-outside slide tubing fit is (using a nice term) "casual" or (more bluntly) loose. Sound is even and sweet - yet also (again: leaky, but NOT worn) a bit fuzzy, but (at least - with me behind it) not robust. Intonation is reminscent of the 1960's-1970's "Besson" euphoniums that I've played - requiring constant attention (ie. some pretty radical "lipping")...and yes, I know these instruments have their ardent fans and owners.
I'm thinking that - even though different colors - the size difference in the two bells (from the throat down to the bottom) is easily seen and easily seen to be stark.
suppositions:
...Admittedly, I've never played a B&S-made Besson "Sovereign" nor "Prestige" euphonium. Likely (surely?), the machine work (valves/slides) is more like the modern B&S/M-W/Courtois instruments (which are all made there)...so perhaps (??) the German Besson playing characteristics are sort-of-the-same, but (perhaps...??) stronger/more secure/less fuzzy-sounding than with these England-made instruments.
I own the Meinl-Weston stencil (and haven't owned it for very long). I formerly owned a Willson 2900 (yet with a large-shank receiver).
I'm not a euphonium soloist (at all), but use compensating (fully chromatic) euphoniums to play the 5th parts in written-for-bass-trombone brass quintets (Ewazen, Dahl, Sampson, et al), pick one up and - unapologetically - play out-of-character/judged-by-me-to-be-a-bit-risky high passages in otherwise-contrabass-tuba orchestral pieces (whereby the young composers/arrangers know no better, PLUS I don't care to play "let's see if bloke screws it up on the concert" games), and (lately - rather than being an "F tuba hero") I've been playing early 19th century ophicleide/serpent parts (labeled "tuba" in modern additions) with a euphonium...so I really LIKE my stencil Meinl-Weston (really large bell, and the really large bore - found on the largest bore euphoniums made these days) sort-of-more-tuba-ish-sounding euphonium (though sure: not quite) for that which I use it...
...but (when I find that I'm confronted with some QUITE high "tenor tuba" part - Pictures/Planets/Strauss/etc.) I also own an ancient metal-valve-guides (ugly-brown, with dark red ink painted-on name) Yamaha 321 - with the rarely-seen aftermarket dependent 5th rotor (as the receiver is smaller, the bell is smaller, and the bore is roughly 20/1000ths of an inch smaller and - again - I'm not a "euphonium hero").
biased opinions and observations of a lowly doubler
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- bloke
- Mid South Music
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- bloke
- Mid South Music
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Re: biased opinions and observations of a lowly doubler
post-script...
A euphonium requiring a main slide trigger would be a nightmare for me - being only a doubler, and not playing it often enough to remember when to mash that thing.
I believe (??) I can hear well enough to "lip" stuff, but - when fistfuls of pitches require lipping - the "music" and "concentrating on playing this doubling instrument" might get ahead of "being prepared to lip".
I suppose this David Werden thing isn't too far from correct - even though he probably tested a German-made one:
(My experience was that the E-flat octave was even wider.)
LOL...Euphoniums (with some behaving less wildly than others) are no more in-tune than most tubas...and - via their top-action config. - the only option for tuning anything (other than "lipping") is that wonky/industrial-heaviness Rube Goldberg-reminiscent main tuning slide thingie. Oh yeah: VIBRATO !!!
A euphonium requiring a main slide trigger would be a nightmare for me - being only a doubler, and not playing it often enough to remember when to mash that thing.
I believe (??) I can hear well enough to "lip" stuff, but - when fistfuls of pitches require lipping - the "music" and "concentrating on playing this doubling instrument" might get ahead of "being prepared to lip".
I suppose this David Werden thing isn't too far from correct - even though he probably tested a German-made one:
(My experience was that the E-flat octave was even wider.)
LOL...Euphoniums (with some behaving less wildly than others) are no more in-tune than most tubas...and - via their top-action config. - the only option for tuning anything (other than "lipping") is that wonky/industrial-heaviness Rube Goldberg-reminiscent main tuning slide thingie. Oh yeah: VIBRATO !!!
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Re: biased opinions and observations of a lowly doubler
That MW is cool. I played a Miraphone 1258 a long time ago that seemed massive, it also had an oversized receiver so an American shank mp fit well enough. Huge low range, super fat sound; the low range was better than most of the F tubas in the room. I almost traded my Getzen bass for one, both of us backed out of that one.
My current euphs are a 3 valve Amati my parents bought me in HS. It plays really well and being a 3 valve non comp horn has a great response and is very lightweight. My gf played baritone in HS so I bought a used Chinese Schiller 4 valve comp for her, she didn't get back into it so I sort of took it over. It's a noticably thicker sound.
I'm a lousy euph player (brass band concerts were brutal) but I like playing it as a micro tuba. I use a Josef Klier KBP2C, a contrabass trombone mp, in it and it's a blast to play low range stuff. It did take a while to learn how to play comfortably in the comp range. I'd like to get a front valve King someday and get a large shank receiver put on. It probably wouldn't sound that different from my Amati to make it worthwhile though. Those European polka players can sure rock them, I swear I saw an inline 6 valve horn once.
I'd like to get a marching baritone just for fun, I have a Yamaha 60B (German style bass trombone mp, I use it for jazz band) that I'd probably use. I should have bought Blake's but didn't want to get into another project. I should have never sold my Olds marching trombone and F contrabass trumpet, especially the latter.
Tl;dr- I hate playing most euphonium parts and I agree with OP that they usually add to the overt mezzo sound in bands that Joe has mentioned before but I do think they're great utility horns to cover different instruments. I just wish front valves and a 5th valve had been the standard. Even if I had to use a strap or hold it up it'd be far more comfortable.
My current euphs are a 3 valve Amati my parents bought me in HS. It plays really well and being a 3 valve non comp horn has a great response and is very lightweight. My gf played baritone in HS so I bought a used Chinese Schiller 4 valve comp for her, she didn't get back into it so I sort of took it over. It's a noticably thicker sound.
I'm a lousy euph player (brass band concerts were brutal) but I like playing it as a micro tuba. I use a Josef Klier KBP2C, a contrabass trombone mp, in it and it's a blast to play low range stuff. It did take a while to learn how to play comfortably in the comp range. I'd like to get a front valve King someday and get a large shank receiver put on. It probably wouldn't sound that different from my Amati to make it worthwhile though. Those European polka players can sure rock them, I swear I saw an inline 6 valve horn once.
I'd like to get a marching baritone just for fun, I have a Yamaha 60B (German style bass trombone mp, I use it for jazz band) that I'd probably use. I should have bought Blake's but didn't want to get into another project. I should have never sold my Olds marching trombone and F contrabass trumpet, especially the latter.
Tl;dr- I hate playing most euphonium parts and I agree with OP that they usually add to the overt mezzo sound in bands that Joe has mentioned before but I do think they're great utility horns to cover different instruments. I just wish front valves and a 5th valve had been the standard. Even if I had to use a strap or hold it up it'd be far more comfortable.
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Re: biased opinions and observations of a lowly doubler
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Last edited by YorkNumber3.0 on Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- bloke
- Mid South Music
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Re: biased opinions and observations of a lowly doubler
I'm not a M-W expert, but - not only did I think that the huge bell (about which I was previously aware - due to stuff I'll reveal in the next paragraph) might define a more suitable euphonium for my specific purposes, but this particular one (ok...as with my Willson, decades ago) was priced stupid-low.
Right here, though (geographically), is one of the few Meinl-Weston euphonium artists (John Mueller, retired Pershing's Own principal as well as retired for teaching at the Univ of Memphis). He's the one who looked at my stencil instrument and informed me that it's a 5 (vs. a 4). I believe they still offer M-W euphoniums special order, and are up to a 7 series, now ("Phoenix" - a signature model). https://www.musicarts.com/meinl-weston- ... ain0025016 From the description, I don't see any significant differences between it and a 5 (??).
(I'm guessing, due to the cylindrical tubing goofy-length issues) the M-W euphoniums received some bad press ("tuning"), and I don't believe (??) they ever took off. It seems to me that (when Edgware Road completely shuttered - a few years after reunification, and B&S being stepped up technologically) with a lot (most? all?) of the high-cost-production Geretsried production being shifted to the lower-cost-production B&S factory, that B&S was the ideal place to continue on with the production of the beloved "Besson" line. I have no idea whether the Edgware bell mandrel and bow molds were reused (combined with mostly-M-W-ish valvesets - though with the Besson bore sizes) or (??) if they completely started over from scratch. Anyway...It just seems to me to have been the perfectly logical place for the Besson euphonium line to be continued (particularly as the M-W euphoniums - again - never really caught on).
Looping back to the topic of the bell, this is how huge (not just the bell "throat", but the entire bell, on the M-W) is...
I have a Wick metal straight mute - whereby I never got around to shaving the corks to fit my Willson. The circumferential seam on the mute (connecting the upper bowl of the mute to the mute's lower funnel shape) hovered 5 to 6 inches above the bell rim with the Willson. With the Meinl-Weston, the Wick mute (un-trimmed corks) nearly bottoms out - with that same seam on the rim only hovering an inch or less above the instrument's bell rim. The Willson would play nice and strong for me in the compensating range (covering bass trombone parts in quintets/church gigs/etc.) as long as I used something with a remarkably large cup - such as an Elliot contrabass tbn. mouthpiece (same length as regular tbn/euph mpc.), but - with the M-W - I can assess that range just as well with a large-yet-still-normal euphonium mouthpiece (something like a SM-2). As (again) I'm not a euphonium soloist - but a specific-purposes euphonium doubler - this instrument really suits my purposes well. (If I ever get the 4+2 B-flat bass trombone cimbasso project completed - and it ends up being a usable instrument, with good intonation - I can imagining myself pulling out this huge M-W euphonium less often than I do.)
Tangential (previously-mentioned) topic: playing Berlioz and other pre-tuba orchestral works on a compensating euphonium vs. F tuba...
The playing isn't as "heroic" when such works are covered by a euphonium (ie. "Wow...Check out the old bloke - over there - popping out that double-high B-flat", etc.) but (it seems to me) a good compensating euphonium is a better match for the MUSIC. The LOWEST pitch in Berlioz' S.F. is a C below the staff - which is just fine on a good comp. euph. with a good mouthpiece and (minimally, as good as a bloke) player...and that passage is NOT particularly loud, and is "ominous"...that C on a euphonium sounds MUCH MORE LIKE that C on an ophicleide than does that C on an F tuba. In the same way, the low B (a semitone lower) in the overture to Mendelssohn's "A Midsummer Night's Dream" is in a quiet spot, and is supposed to refer to falling asleep and to begin dreaming...The sound - at that spot (hopefully in tune) - does not need to be "nice and round and tuba-like".
Right here, though (geographically), is one of the few Meinl-Weston euphonium artists (John Mueller, retired Pershing's Own principal as well as retired for teaching at the Univ of Memphis). He's the one who looked at my stencil instrument and informed me that it's a 5 (vs. a 4). I believe they still offer M-W euphoniums special order, and are up to a 7 series, now ("Phoenix" - a signature model). https://www.musicarts.com/meinl-weston- ... ain0025016 From the description, I don't see any significant differences between it and a 5 (??).
(I'm guessing, due to the cylindrical tubing goofy-length issues) the M-W euphoniums received some bad press ("tuning"), and I don't believe (??) they ever took off. It seems to me that (when Edgware Road completely shuttered - a few years after reunification, and B&S being stepped up technologically) with a lot (most? all?) of the high-cost-production Geretsried production being shifted to the lower-cost-production B&S factory, that B&S was the ideal place to continue on with the production of the beloved "Besson" line. I have no idea whether the Edgware bell mandrel and bow molds were reused (combined with mostly-M-W-ish valvesets - though with the Besson bore sizes) or (??) if they completely started over from scratch. Anyway...It just seems to me to have been the perfectly logical place for the Besson euphonium line to be continued (particularly as the M-W euphoniums - again - never really caught on).
Looping back to the topic of the bell, this is how huge (not just the bell "throat", but the entire bell, on the M-W) is...
I have a Wick metal straight mute - whereby I never got around to shaving the corks to fit my Willson. The circumferential seam on the mute (connecting the upper bowl of the mute to the mute's lower funnel shape) hovered 5 to 6 inches above the bell rim with the Willson. With the Meinl-Weston, the Wick mute (un-trimmed corks) nearly bottoms out - with that same seam on the rim only hovering an inch or less above the instrument's bell rim. The Willson would play nice and strong for me in the compensating range (covering bass trombone parts in quintets/church gigs/etc.) as long as I used something with a remarkably large cup - such as an Elliot contrabass tbn. mouthpiece (same length as regular tbn/euph mpc.), but - with the M-W - I can assess that range just as well with a large-yet-still-normal euphonium mouthpiece (something like a SM-2). As (again) I'm not a euphonium soloist - but a specific-purposes euphonium doubler - this instrument really suits my purposes well. (If I ever get the 4+2 B-flat bass trombone cimbasso project completed - and it ends up being a usable instrument, with good intonation - I can imagining myself pulling out this huge M-W euphonium less often than I do.)
Tangential (previously-mentioned) topic: playing Berlioz and other pre-tuba orchestral works on a compensating euphonium vs. F tuba...
The playing isn't as "heroic" when such works are covered by a euphonium (ie. "Wow...Check out the old bloke - over there - popping out that double-high B-flat", etc.) but (it seems to me) a good compensating euphonium is a better match for the MUSIC. The LOWEST pitch in Berlioz' S.F. is a C below the staff - which is just fine on a good comp. euph. with a good mouthpiece and (minimally, as good as a bloke) player...and that passage is NOT particularly loud, and is "ominous"...that C on a euphonium sounds MUCH MORE LIKE that C on an ophicleide than does that C on an F tuba. In the same way, the low B (a semitone lower) in the overture to Mendelssohn's "A Midsummer Night's Dream" is in a quiet spot, and is supposed to refer to falling asleep and to begin dreaming...The sound - at that spot (hopefully in tune) - does not need to be "nice and round and tuba-like".